What is it and when was it made?

[patrsnw]

I've an E.M. Reilly, .450 BPE (I think and hope). I'm trying to find out all I can about it before I sell it (for my wife's aunt, believe it or not).

What I know:

E.M. Reilly .450 BPE
Good to fine condition (my guess per NRA guidelines)
Three proof marks:
The "I can't describe it" London, provisional proof since 1856;
Crown over interconnected CP, London definitive black powder proof;
and the crown over V "since 1670" London view mark.

The rifle was purchased in Spain by a relative, from a gun shop on consignment, probably in the 1950s.

Specs (my measurements)
10 lbs, 28" barrel, .450 caliber (per my calipers)
Gold inlay: E.M. Reilly, London and Paris, "To their majesties the kings of Spain and Portugal" on top of the barrel.
Double-hammer (of course)
Three sites - 100 (fixed), 200 and 300 (fold down)
"COC 9" (it looks like) under the barrel adjacent to the (matching) serial number (25572)
Fancy (in my eyes) scroll work

Any ideas, opinions, questions gratefully accepted.

 

[RPRNY]

This should help somewhat:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=270014

and this:

http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/em-reilly-and-friends?page=1

and:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/E-M-Reilly-Double-Rifle-8-Bore.cfm?gun_id=100225289

Comparative pricing:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/listings.cfm?cat_id=286

So at retail, (provided it is in working condition) might go between $7500 and $10,000. If she needs the money anytime soon, you should think more realistically in the $5,000 range. It sure is a beauty and EM Reilly was no slouch. Not a Purdey, but no Birmingham trade rifle either. Very cool.

 

[Float Pilot]

Heart be still...... That is the type of thing that trips my trigger....

 

[303tom]

Heart be still...... That is the type of thing that trips my trigger....

You & me both, I have seen those go for as much 7 to 9000 bucks, That is a good looking old E.M. Reilly double rifle...........What year it was made ? That is going to take someone who knows more than I do about them...............

 

[tarosean]

what address is marked on it?

 

[patrsnw]

Some answers

Thanks for the links and questions. Keep 'em coming!

Based on the serial number and other info from a bunch of sites, it was probably made between 1870 and 1874 - splitting the difference would be 1872.

For an address, it only says: London and Paris

Action is tight and my guess is that it'd fire, and fire quite nicely. I've no ammo (else I'd provide the specifics).

My next action is to take it to a reputable appraiser so he can lay hands and eyes on the rifle, then to an auction site.

My major concern was taking it in and not knowing anything about the rifle. What I've seen suggests what a decent reserve would be, however, I'll wait for a "real" appraisal.

If anybody can recommend an appraiser in northern Virginia (or environs), please speak up.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hardly worth the trouble to me.
An appraiser is not making an offer and since you plan to sell at auction, the actual value will be determined on the spot. Talk to your auctioneer about playing the reserve game.

 

[patrsnw]

Thanks, Jim

That's the kind of answer I'm looking for, never having done this (with a rifle) before.

 

[jim243]

Hardly worth the trouble to me.
An appraiser is not making an offer

True, but worth every penny of what it costs if you ever need to make an insurance claim on the item.
Most policies will only cover upto $1,000 in firearms unless you have a rider on the policy and for that you will need a appraisl.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

True, for a gun to be kept.
But I thought he was going to sell it for Auntie.
I guess you could make a case for an insurance appraisal if it were going to sit around for a good while until he lined up an auction.

 

[patrsnw]

The address on the right barrel is 16 New Oxford Street. On the left barrel is "Gun & Rifle Manufacturers."

And yes, I plan to sell this for "auntie." How I sell it is to be determined - send it off to an auction house, do it myself eBay-style, or put it as "For sale" here or on a like forum.

Thanks, all.

 

[tarosean]

The address on the right barrel is 16 New Oxford Street. On the left barrel is "Gun & Rifle Manufacturers."

With that address and the trade label to the Kings I believe its an 1887-1903 model.

 

[tarosean]

Here is a lil info.

1848 : Business moved to 502, Oxford Street, London.

1850 : E M REILLY published his ‘Treatise on Air Guns’

Trade labels advertised ‘Air Canes for Sale’

Reilly, a London gunmaker specialising in air guns, writing around 1850 states

that he was able to produce a pressure of a little under 500 pounds per square

inch using the direct stroke pump of the time. Quote taken from Reilly’s ‘Air

Guns and other Air Weapons’ a short pamphlet reprinted in 1995 by W.S.Curtis

Publishers, Rhyl, Clwd

1851 : E M REILLY of Oxford Street exhibited air guns at the Great Exhibition.

Known to have been influenced by the breechloaders shown by Lefaucheaux of Paris and was ‘overdone with orders’.

c.1850 – 1870 the business took part in breechloader v muzzleloader trials with [amongst others] Lancaster, Needham and Lang. Placed tenth in a trial of 58 and eleventh in 59.

Produced rifles on the C E Green & J Green patent – a ‘capping breech loader’ that had a rudimentary cartridge ignited by an external cap fired by a conventional side hammer.

Sold James Dougal ‘Lockfast’ breechloaders under licence and guns designed by Lieutenant Francis Bacon.

Also rifles built on a system designed by Major Nutall although these may have been made by Thomas Turner.

1854 : Known to be selling self-cocking Tranter revolvers on the Adams Patent and utilising the Tranter’s rammer. Serial numbers thought to start at 2200T.

1857 : J C [Father] and E M [Son] REILLY part company.

E M REILLY retains the 502, Oxford Street address.

1859 : E M REILLY moved to 316, High Holborn. Name changed to REILLY & CO.

1861 : Name changed to E M REILLY & CO

Advertisement in ‘Bradshaws’ shows 315 & 502 Oxford Street.

1869 : Granted Patent No. 1259 for an exploding bullet for long-range use against

artillery ammunition wagons.

1870 – 1874 : During this period the business appeared to specialise in ornate,

gold engraved weapons including pistols and revolvers.

c1880 : Advertisement in Burke’s Landed Gentry publication shows premises at

Oxford Street and Rue Scribe, Paris.

Advert shows two top lever hammer shotguns, one round action and the other a square action. It lists ‘Latest improved chokes which never wear out. Guns from 10 guineas. Light 20 bores and really good shooting chokebores, suitable for game or sea-fowl. Latest stock of Express rifles and a new calibre [unstated] for antelope and deerstalking. Immediate trial at their private shooting grounds in Wood Lane, Shepherds Bush’

1881 : Advertised in Wisden [Cricket] Wildfowling guns from £11 and Gamekeepers

guns from £6:10:00.

1882 : Trade label shows 315 Oxford Street as the main address with 502 and Rue

Scribe as subsidiaries

Label advertises ‘Self closing actions, rebounding locks, breech loaders and double rifles all with the latest approved systems.’

A trade label of this period also shows “Reilly’s Armoury House” at 315 Oxford Street with 502, Oxford Street as their principal address.

1883 : Registered at 16 New Oxford Street [This was next door to the earlier 316

High Holborn address] This is thought to be a street renumbering not a change

of location. Also recorded at 277 Oxford Street.

Holt’s ‘Shooting Calendar’ for this year reported the number of wins at live pigeon shooting competitions by London made guns as : Reilly 82, Purdey 55, Lang 48, Grant 40, Hodges 34 and Holland 8.

A trade label of this period shows “16, New Oxford Street, 277, Oxford Street & 29, Rue Du Fabourg, St Honore, Paris.”

1884 : Awarded a Gold Medal in the London Exhibition.

1886 : Advertisement in Burke’s Landed Gentry publication shows premises at

277 Oxford Street,16, New Oxford Street and Rue Scribe, Paris.

Advert shows two hammerless double barrel shotguns, one top lever the other an underlever. Lists ‘Hammerless guns with all the latest improvements including the interposing block safety. Trial available at our private shooting grounds. Wild fowl guns, express rifles and miniature and magnum express. Superior rook rifles and British Army revolvers.’

1887 : Trade label advertises ‘By special appointment to His Majesty the King of

Spain; His Majesty the King of Portugal; His Majesty the King of the Netherlands.’

1898/9 : Succeeded to his fathers business on his death.

1903 : Due to extensive rebuilding in Oxford Street the business moved to 295 Oxford

Street. A gun built c1905 also carries his late father’s address of 12 Middle Row,

Holborn on the top rib.

1911 : Became a Limited Company in December; directors were H REILLY &

C W ROBERTS.

A trade label advertised ‘Double guns in pairs. Double and single rifles. Pistols of every description. Patent revolvers. Manufacturer of improved airguns and air canes. Large assortment always ready for India and emigrants to all parts of the globe.

1912 : Registered at 13, High Street, Marylebone.

1917 : Incorporated into the business of Charles Riggs & Co

of 107, Bishopsgate London.

1924 : An ‘introduction’ by Riggs for Reilly guns states “Reilly needs no comment here,

having been established for almost 100 years and it’s reputation for

craftsmanship and value is a household word”

c1966 : Charles Riggs ceased trading.

2001 : The name “E M Reilly & Company Gun Manufacturers Ltd” is now owned

by ;

Newton & Co [Chartered Accountants]

Ranmore House

19 Ranmore Road

Dorking

 

[patrsnw]

Thanks, tarosean. That puts it a bit later than I originally though (based on serial number). I totally missed the address, probably because of the gold lettering right next to it!

As for the date range, I think that if it were in the later years it would be proofed for nitro (1890+).

I think my best bet is to get this into the hands of someone that knows English guns from this period who will, undoubtedly, see things that I've missed.

 

[patrsnw]

I took the rifle to a local (as local as anything gun-related can be to northern Virginia). It's now listed here on gunsinternational.com:


Thanks for all the responses.

 

[Jim K]

Small piece of info. The proof mark is not "CP", it is "GP" for Gunmakers' Proof (London proof).

Jim