British Proof Marks

[Johnm1]

I'm learning that I'm not very good with British Proof Marks. It seems that all of the charts I can find on the internet don't necessarily agree with each other. I'm trying to determine if the proof marks on my Queen Anne pistol are Birmingham or London. There are two marks and best I can tell they are both the Crown over CP. Both are very worn and I can't say for sure. Here are three pictures. The first shows the two together on the bottom of the 'barrel extension' on the Queen Anne. Then the Top mark, then the bottom mark.



Top Proof


Bottom Proof



Trying not to infringe on copywrites, here are the sources I've been looking at. Yea, the right answer is to buy the right book to answer my questions.


Firearm Proof Marks | PDF | Gun Barrel | Gun (scribd.com)

British Proofs (hallowellco.com)

Proof mark dates for British Guns (vintageguns.co.uk)

33rdGun.indb (nramuseum.org)

What do you think? London?

 

[Johnm1]

I have been corresponding with Joe P. at Man at Arms about this pistol for a month or so. He is writing a book about the Ketlands (the maker of the pistol that the marks are about in this thread). He has confirmed that the proofs are from London and not Birmingham. Even though the pistol was made in Birmingham ti would need to be proved in London to be sold in London.

He also confirmed that what we are seeing is really a Crown over GP for the Gunmakers proof. Though I'm still trying to figure out if both marks are the same or if one of them is a crown over something other than a GP. Either or both could be Crown over GP. Not sure why it would have been proved twice, though I suppose it could have been. I would have expected it to be marked with a Crown over V (for view) for its initial inspection.

 

[Johnm1]

We will probably never know the real answer about these proof marks. There should be two different marks. A crown over GP and a Crown over V. I can see the crown over GP in either, but I can't see a crown over V in either. Double stamp? Just a mistake? Who knows. I'm currently researching the hallmarks on the silver butt cap. If you're interested in the end of that research I'm documenting that in the thread 'Oldest Firearm I Own'. Here is a comparison photograph

 

[Odd Job]

You could also try the National Firearms Centre, attached to the Leeds Armoury which has a large collection of firearms:

[email protected]

They have a lot of knowledge about things like this.

 

[Johnm1]

You could also try the National Firearms Centre, attached to the Leeds Armoury which has a large collection of firearms:

[email protected]

They have a lot of knowledge about things like this.

Thank you for that reference. I will follow up.

Joe over at Man at Arms is convinced they are both the London Crown over GP Gun Maker's Proof (Definitive Black Powder) marks. That makes no sense, but mistakes happen. Even 230 years ago.

In the end the London proofs aren't going to help me date this pistol any closer than I already know. As best I can tell, the Crown over GP (I still think it looks like a Crown over CP) has been used since sometime in the 1600's all the way through today.

I've spent the last few days researching the silver butt cap. It is hallmarked. Unfortunately the date mark is missing. That could have narrowed down the time frame. I'll continue that research in the 'Oldest Firearm' thread.

 

[Johnm1]

Here is what a set of London Proofs would look like. It also includes a maker's mark that mine also doesn't have.