bushmaster1313
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Why issue shotguns to prison guards and not a semi-auto carbine?
What is rationale behind shotguns for prison duty?
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BK
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No need for a long range weapon. That's my guess.
When I use to work a prison we used shotguns (Remington police magnum 870) and carbines (Mini-14). In towers we used mini-14s when on horseback working the fields or on a night chase we used the shotguns. The reason we used shotguns so much though is best explained by when I went to qualify. We had about 6 people (small class too under 20) fail the first time around with the mini-14. Only one person failed the shotgun the first time around. The guy didn't get a good cheek weld and tried to hold the shotgun with none of his hand over the stock. On firing the shotgun kicked up and almost broke his nose. It's a lot easier to hit your target with a shotgun than it is with a rifle and sorry to say it but the mentality is that inmates are expendable, if you hit 3-4 other inmates in the process of stopping an escape oh well.
Oh and to add. Corrections is one of the few (only?) law enforcement jobs where you do warning shots. A warning shot from a pump action is a lot scarier than from an auto
Oh and to add. Corrections is one of the few (only?) law enforcement jobs where you do warning shots. A warning shot from a pump action is a lot scarier than from an auto
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bushmaster1313
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Isn't the range of a shotgun too short to stop an escape?
huntinggamo
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i think it has alot more to do with the versatility of a shotgun, they have les lethal rounds for a shotgun, such as oc rounds, rubber projectiles, bean bags...ect
as for escape from the yard or whatever long range escape you are picturing that is why they cary m4's and m14's in the towers....
as for escape from the yard or whatever long range escape you are picturing that is why they cary m4's and m14's in the towers....
IIRC minimum distance is 50 ft you need to be from an inmate while carrying a weapon. When you're on a chase though your goal really is to apprehend so you're going to be getting much closer. If you're on the prison grounds you really want to fire off a warning shot and if they don't stop aim for center mass and hope for the best. Ideally you would just wound them and then they could be sent over to a disciplinary camp. 00 buckshot may not be super lethal with any sort of range but if they've gotten 100 yards away you've already screwed up and hopefully you called for backup well before they got that far. Tact team is another story, they get m16s and glocks.
bushmaster1313
Member
What is this?
Per ACA standards there is a certain minimum distance you must maintain from unrestrained inmates while armed. ACA is kind of like OSHA for prisons. Not all prisons are ACA accredited but the good ones are (so are the bad ones often times to get out from consent decree)
https://www.aca.org/standards/
If you want to read about ACA go there. I don't think they post a list of the standards online but at least you can learn about what it is.
https://www.aca.org/standards/
If you want to read about ACA go there. I don't think they post a list of the standards online but at least you can learn about what it is.
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There is many benefits of a shotgun.
The first is that they are much easier to use to hit a moving man size target with minimal skill.
They have rifles in the towers.
Keep in mind this is not humane hunting where all the pellets need to strike or completely drop the target at long range. If the person running away is merely wounded by a pellet or two that is drastically going to reduce their ability to successfully escape or avoid additional shots.
They will be slower, dogs can track them easier, and they have a limited time before they need medical attention.
So it does its job at longer range against people running away. It also is quite lethal at shorter ranges.
Another added benefit of only arming the guards on the ground with shotguns is that if inmates do manage to get that shotgun the distant rifles in the towers can easily dispatch the armed inmate on less than equal footing.
If the armed inmate ends up indoors they can also send in a tactical team with body armor that will easily stop the pellets of the buckshot only shotgun much more easily than rifle rounds.
So it makes sense that the guards with the highest chance of being disarmed have shotguns.
So arming the guards on the ground with shotguns has many advantages, performs adequately against prisoners, and has minimal disadvantages.
The first is that they are much easier to use to hit a moving man size target with minimal skill.
They have rifles in the towers.
Keep in mind this is not humane hunting where all the pellets need to strike or completely drop the target at long range. If the person running away is merely wounded by a pellet or two that is drastically going to reduce their ability to successfully escape or avoid additional shots.
They will be slower, dogs can track them easier, and they have a limited time before they need medical attention.
So it does its job at longer range against people running away. It also is quite lethal at shorter ranges.
Another added benefit of only arming the guards on the ground with shotguns is that if inmates do manage to get that shotgun the distant rifles in the towers can easily dispatch the armed inmate on less than equal footing.
If the armed inmate ends up indoors they can also send in a tactical team with body armor that will easily stop the pellets of the buckshot only shotgun much more easily than rifle rounds.
So it makes sense that the guards with the highest chance of being disarmed have shotguns.
So arming the guards on the ground with shotguns has many advantages, performs adequately against prisoners, and has minimal disadvantages.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I have always been told a prison riot is like crowd or riot control: the shotgun is more intimidating than the rifle. The prospect that a number of prople will be hit by shot may help quell the mob mentality.
dfariswheel
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Some prison systems also allow using the shotgun as a means of stopping trouble short of killing.
If, as example, two or more inmates are fighting the guard has the option of firing the shotgun at the concrete at their feet and bouncing shot off the floor and into their legs.
This causes wounds, but not fatal as if a rifle was used or the shotgun was fired at their upper bodies.
If, as example, two or more inmates are fighting the guard has the option of firing the shotgun at the concrete at their feet and bouncing shot off the floor and into their legs.
This causes wounds, but not fatal as if a rifle was used or the shotgun was fired at their upper bodies.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Shotguns make Big Holes and if ever looked a the business end of one you will understand. The longer you look the bigger it gets.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
I retired in 98 from MD DOC. Shotguns are used for many reasons. Some are....
Shotguns scare a lot of people, including many hardened criminals.
Suppressive fire/area interdiction is easier with a shotgun. 5 rounds of 00 put 45 to 60 pellets out all capable of wounding or killing. Standard Mini 14 mags hold 20 projectiles.
Specialty ammo for 12 gauges includes things like tear gas,smoke, wooden baton loads,even grenades. Some agencies also issue bird shot for training and riot control.
870s( The most common issued shotgun) can be cleared in an instant by trained personnel if there's a glitch.. Autos require a bit more training,and no agency has time to burn. And few agencies teach clearance drills, though I ALWAYS did.
Economy. 870s cost less than Mini 14s, and while towers had one of each, the armory held about 20 870s and say 8 14s.
Few institutions allow firearms inside. San Quentin and some penal farms are the exceptions. San Quentin COs were issued shotguns with birdshot inside, and they developed a takedown shot at close range into the pelvis.Not recommended.
Skip shooting, shooting at the surface so shot pellets ricochet up into the lower portions of the anatomy is not much used anymore. It's still Lethal Force, and the paradigm is to shoot only to stop.
Penal weapons usually look horrible outside and unless you get a trainer weapon, pristine inside. Almost always, buying one is a cost effective method of buying reliability and effectiveness.
A couple 870s here started out as Police/Correctional shotguns. They work very,very well.
Shotguns scare a lot of people, including many hardened criminals.
Suppressive fire/area interdiction is easier with a shotgun. 5 rounds of 00 put 45 to 60 pellets out all capable of wounding or killing. Standard Mini 14 mags hold 20 projectiles.
Specialty ammo for 12 gauges includes things like tear gas,smoke, wooden baton loads,even grenades. Some agencies also issue bird shot for training and riot control.
870s( The most common issued shotgun) can be cleared in an instant by trained personnel if there's a glitch.. Autos require a bit more training,and no agency has time to burn. And few agencies teach clearance drills, though I ALWAYS did.
Economy. 870s cost less than Mini 14s, and while towers had one of each, the armory held about 20 870s and say 8 14s.
Few institutions allow firearms inside. San Quentin and some penal farms are the exceptions. San Quentin COs were issued shotguns with birdshot inside, and they developed a takedown shot at close range into the pelvis.Not recommended.
Skip shooting, shooting at the surface so shot pellets ricochet up into the lower portions of the anatomy is not much used anymore. It's still Lethal Force, and the paradigm is to shoot only to stop.
Penal weapons usually look horrible outside and unless you get a trainer weapon, pristine inside. Almost always, buying one is a cost effective method of buying reliability and effectiveness.
A couple 870s here started out as Police/Correctional shotguns. They work very,very well.
leadcounsel
member
Unmatched stopping power in a simple, cost effective and intimidating package that is VERY familiar to even the hardest of inmates. Everyone knows what a 12 gauge does. And as other mentioned limited range. If an inmate secures one, the guards with rifles have a distinct advantage. Finally, versatility in types of shot.
jdh
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Retired from a large correctional agency in April, the last 10 or so years served as a firearm instructor.
The shotgun can shoot gas, rubber pellets, bean bags, and many other rounds a carbine cannot.
Correctional officers are not the most highly trained (5 rounds a year for the shotgun 30 for the carbine) or skilled in the use of arms.
Shotgun pellets are more likely to stay in the target. The issued FMJ for the carbine tends to zip right on though.
The shotgun can shoot gas, rubber pellets, bean bags, and many other rounds a carbine cannot.
Correctional officers are not the most highly trained (5 rounds a year for the shotgun 30 for the carbine) or skilled in the use of arms.
Shotgun pellets are more likely to stay in the target. The issued FMJ for the carbine tends to zip right on though.
I am going to guess that the prisons have a minimum distance regulation designed to keep armed guards far enough away from the prisoners that the prisoners can't seize the weapons.
California does not even train their COs on shotguns, at least not in the past 2 years. The shotguns are pretty much out of the inventory any more. They now use Mini 14s for shooting when shooting is necessary. Handguns are pretty much Glocks now as they are transitioning from S&W Model 10s and used for escort duty primarily. Less than lethal beanbag and gas launchers are most commonly used unless deadly force is justified and then the Mini 14s are it. The CDCR SWAT teams use M4s and H&Ks for sidearms.
Six
Member
There we have it, from Dave McCracken himself - Birdshot is the load of choice for stopping hardened criminals.
That should finally put an end to all debates concerning using birdshot for defense. Forever.
(Yes I'm joking, but I can't wait to see what'll happen when someone uses search and digs up the post to support their argument)
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Fuggidaboutdit, Six. I have more than enough folks out there misquoting me now.
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