What is the .25acp capable of?

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm sure we can get a 9mm in a similar sized pistol but the resultant recoil and slower follow up kind of make this scenario an "apples to oranges" kind of comparison in my opinion.

There is always something more powerful when comparing the smaller calibers as they are on the small end of the scale...there is something with more "oommph" delivered to a target but it comes with more "smack" to the shooter and it is often the balance of these two concepts that decides the better caliber in a particular sized pistol for many folks.

VooDoo

 

[dbmjr1]

I've got more. These are just a few pics I have handy.

Trust me, It'll penetrate a deer's skull. That guy was likely trying to penetrate the roadbed with his misses. It'll kill a pig dead with one shot through the head, in a cage up close. It's not the most powerful handgun in the world, but don't under estimate it's ability to penetrate.

 

[amd6547]

For a while, I owned identical Beretta 21a Bobcats...one 22lr, the other 25acp.
I would practice with the 22, and shoot the 25 only occasionally.
The ammo cost really kept me from shooting the 25 more.
Using decent 22 ammo like CCI-anything and Aguila SuperMax and Interceptor, I never had a failure with the 22 Bobcat.
One day, I shot both version into the same phone book using a couple different loads.
Penetration was similar between the two, particularly the solid MiniMag and the FMJ 25.
Finally, I traded off the 25 version and slip the 22 in my pocket.
It really is price which is killing the 25. Years ago, when I owned a Mauser 1910 25, I could buy 25rd boxes of West German GECO 25 ammo for cheap. Beautiful ammo with the primer and case mouth lacquer sealed, and cupro-nickel FMJ bullet...loaded to higher velocity than the stuff you buy now.
If I could still get ammo like that for a reasonable price, I might have kept that 25 beretta.

 

[velocette]

I have a Czech Duo .25 ACP pistol made in 1944 under German occupation.
It is a near copy of the Browning .25acp, so much so that many parts interchange.
In the time I have had it, I have put about 300 rds downrange with it. Never a failure, jam, problem, just BANG every time I pull the trigger using Remington factory ammo or my reloads.
Reloading it takes a small pistol primer, 1.3 gr ( ! ) of Bullseye and an FMJ bullet from Midway @ $12.49 / 100.
It actually is a fun little pistol with more (a little more) power than a .22 RF.
It is accurate enough to hit a man sized target at 50 yards every time.
BUT the big thing is RELIABILITY. It ALWAYS goes bang, every time all the time.
I carry it in a back pocket holster whenever I am not able to carry a "real" gun.

Roger

 

[kBob]

Y'all excuse me but I got to wonder where all those 9 silly meter pistols near abouts the size of the Baby Browning, Colt '08 and various Star, etc. copies, and Bernadelli Baby are being hidden.

This, folks, is a religious argument. Not one of us that occasionally or daily or in the past has carried a .25 ACP is going to convince those that immediately think "useless" when they see .25 that we are even sane.

Many of you know me to be a big .45 ACP fan, to the point of carrying a full sized one for CCW (in the past mostly, but these days occasionally), but I still think a .25 ACP in the hand beats all the 9silly meters and up in glove boxes, sock drawers or gun safes in the world when you need it.

I can't think of a single pair of trousers I own that would let me slip a baseball bat into a pocket un noticeably. Even a some what large for a .25 ACP pistol like an Ortgies just disappears when dropped in a pocket. Something like the afore mentioned minis needs to be in something so you can find them. Shoot they take up less room and weigh less than the saps or slung shot some of my ancient kin carried when I was a youth and have a lot more range.

Back on the original topic though......

As to shooting the .25ACP in longer barrels.... I think the biggest issue would be FINDING a longer barrel. I thought immediately of "shell shrinkers" or "Auxillary chambers" like the ones for .22 in .223 or .32 ACP in .308. Unfortunately .25 in rifle calibers seems to mean .257 while the .25 ACP uses a .251 bullet. About the only thing that might work I can think of might be the Winchester .25-35 or Marlin .25-36 which I believe did use .251 bullets.

Some of the obsolete rimfires might have used .251 bullets and I suppose a breech block might be modified to make it take a center fire cartridge and the chamber made to accept .25 ACP.

I suppose something like a center fire version of the Ruger RST series (to include Mark whatevers) might be made up to use the .25 ACP but I can not imagine a manufacturer taking the effort to fight for such a market. Perhaps a gun smithing school student might do such for a single gun master work project.

The MCA folks make a chamber insert that consist of a section of .22 RF barrel machined to the shape of a bottle necked rifle case of larger bullet size and fire from the parent rifle using that case as the .22 chamber and short barrel with a center to rimfire adapter plug/firing pin. I suppose something like that might be turned for the .25 ACP though what parent rifle barrel might be cut up and turned I can not imagine. Something like a TC Contender carbine or pistol could of course take a longer insert if one could find a .251 "donor" barrel. A shotgun with such an adaptor could also be used, if one just had to have one.

I suppose this might even be fun in a sort of depraved way......

-kBob

 

[mr.trooper]

I don't believe for a second that a semi rimmed cartridge, which is more vulnerable to rim lock than a fully rimmed one, is any more reliable than top shelf 22 rimfire.

I've only ever experienced bad primers on cheap bulk boxes. Never had a mini-mag, velocitor, or stinger with a bad primer. Never had a bad primer in 1,000 rounds of 22 mag, or 500 rounds of 17 HMR either.

I think the price point of manufacture for 99% of 22LR is the issue, not that the actual priming system. I'm sure I'll get jumped for saying this, so go on and flame away.

THAT said, I do think the 25acp offers better bullet construction than any availible 22LR, and lower recoil than a 32 or 380.

There are two 25acp pistols I would consider buying, and neither are particularly small - The mauser 1910 (If i could find a clean one for a cheap enough price), and a pre war Walther PP for anything approaching a reasonable price (so few were made in 25 cal you have to sell your first born to buy one).

A mid size steel frame pistol would have no recoil whatsoever in 25acp, and a legitimate FMJ bullet would give you lots of penetration. Not an ideal defensive weapon, but you could make it work.

 

[herrwalther]

That's a poorly thought out "plan."

Your thinking is backwards to his plan. When he carries the .25ACP that is the only firearm he is carrying, usually in his pocket. He carries the Unique when he can't carry anything larger, such as his service Glock 21 that he keeps in the car. I have a similar method but mine involves a 10+1 9mm and not a 6+1 .25ACP.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

kBob - “Shoot they take up less room and weigh less than the saps or slung shot some of my ancient kin carried when I was a youth and have a lot more range.”

Slightly OT, but since you mentioned it I’ll bet there isn’t one in a hundred Florida LEOs that knows what a “slungshot” is as it is defined in the criminal substantive statutes of the State of Florida.

790.001 (12) - " 'Slungshot' means a small mass of metal, stone, sand or similar material fixed on a flexible handle, strap or the like, used as a weapon."

Aka: blackjack, slapper, etc.

 

[Gun Master]

Slunshot & .25ACP

Slightly OT, but since you mentioned it I’ll bet there isn’t one in a hundred Florida LEOs that knows what a “slungshot” is as it is defined in the criminal substantive statutes of the State of Florida.

790.001 (12) - " 'Slungshot' means a small mass of metal, stone, sand or similar material fixed on a flexible handle, strap or the like, used as a weapon."

Aka: blackjack, slapper, etc.

Ugggg.....also "slap stick", Kemosabe, (per Tonto).

 

[Confederate]

The .25acp is the most underrated pistol ever produced, in my view. Years ago, when I worked for the NRA, I used to put together some of those citizens defense stories. I can't tell you how many stories I read where people smoked bad guys with little Berettas and Ravens and such...and I don't mean just wounded, but killed by that small caliber. Now I no longer collect them, but I still read them, plus I come across news stories in the media every now and again, and I always make a mental note when someone uses a .25acp and manages to kill their assailants. I'm still impressed that it's able to do what it does.

The only problem is that these little pistols are getting increasingly difficult to get one's hands on. In fact, I don't remember the last time I saw a Beretta .25 on a dealer's shelves, especially the stainless model. And I miss the standard single action .25s, which were just a little smaller. There's also a novelty aspect about the tiny guns, and a number of friends who aren't into guns frequently ask me, "Is it real?"

I clearly wouldn't use these guns as a home self defense gun or a primary carry pistol, but I'm impressed that they work as well as they do. They certainly shouldn't be sneered at.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The only problem is that these little pistols are getting increasingly difficult to get one's hands on. In fact, I don't remember the last time I saw a Beretta .25 on a dealer's shelves, especially the stainless model.

I clearly wouldn't use these guns as a home self defense gun or a primary carry pistol, but I'm impressed that they work as well as they do. They certainly shouldn't be sneered at.

Having personally seen at least one of those "good guy successfully used a .25 to defend himself" stories I am always amazed when folks dismiss *any* mouse gun caliber as useless or sneer at them.

But I think that the reason we don't see much of them any more is that prevailing wisdom and sneering has kept the sales of them low and I doubt we'll see any new guns/updated designs chambered in .25 (and .32 for that matter) due to the low rating bestowed upon them by a large number of folks with credibility which has resulted in low/no sales of them.

For me, these guns fall in the category of what if...what if someone release a thin, polymer framed stainless slide/barrel 10 round .25 pocket pistol with a 3" barrel? Think it'd sell?

I'd buy one but I don't think any manufacturer would likely think sales would justify the marketing and production. Mmmmmmm...a Glock in .25. What if?

VooDoo

 

[sixgunner455]

I've seen a few of the little Browning Babies and Colt vest pockets around. Two belonged to a pair of Southern ladies. One kept hers on top of the refrigerator. The other kept hers in the pocket of her apron. The lady who apron carried chased a pair of goblins out of her restaurant with it late one evening when they decided to rob the place. When they saw the gun, one asked her what she was going to do with her little toy.

"I'm gonna shot you right in the eye," she replied as she aimed and snicked off the safety.

Those boys didn't slow down until their tail lights were no longer visible.

The only one I've fired was a Colt vest pocket. It was accurate, and fired every round we loaded in it. Exquisitely machined and finished little piece. I would have one just for the quality of the little thing. But I don't know that I would ever carry it. One finger grip on it, with the tiny safety and sights, just doesn't give me lots of confidence in it as a carry piece. Sure is a cute little thing, though.

 

[Gun Master]

9mm Almost as Small as .25's

No doubt a 25 can kill a person with a perfectly placed shot but now 9mm's are just about as compact as the 25 pieces but pack on whale of lot more punch and the ammo is less expensive..

I agree, but could you name brands and models ?

 

[*Kemosabe*]

Gun Master - “Ugggg.....also "slap stick", Kemosabe, (per Tonto).”

“Tonto also say sometimes .25acp can be heap bad medicine.”


Anecdotally: In the capacity of a homicide investigator, I handled about 10 homicides where the perp used a .25acp. IIRC, less than half died at the scene with the others dying in route to or at the ER. None of the decedents did anything in their defense other than run away.

I can’t attest to all the other shootings utilizing a .25acp because the homicide division only responded to deaths or critical-going-to-die victims. Those surviving where investigated by the local detective bureau personnel. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[David E]

car hit a deer, maybe +/- 90#.

Pulls out his .25 acp. Walks right up to within an inch or two of it's head and pulls the trigger. Deer flops more, so he shoots again. And again. And again. Empties the gun. Every round bounced off.

A .22 would have been fine. We've killed 1200# steers with one shot from a .22

Deer have thick skulls. He should've shot the deer in the ear.

1200 cattle shot dead with a .22.....but I doubt the .22 used had a 2" barrel like the .25 had.

 

[MagicD]

.25 acp penetrates 4 layers denim and 12 inches wet pack,enough to make a an impression. Dunno about the stories where it can't penetrate skin muscle etc ...
Not my first choice for SD but sure don't doubt it's lethality


Whttp://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=.25+vs+.22+in+ballistic+jell&qpvt=.25+vs+.22+in+ballistic+jell&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=8795BCFCDD30ADD4E9978795BCFCDD30ADD4E997

 

[kefefs]

.25 Auto FMJ will penetrate about 10" in ballistic gelatin out of a 2" barrel. At close range, if you hit the right spot, it will kill a man just as dead as anything else. Handgun ballistics is all shot placement and penetration, after all.

It's not ideal by any stretch but it's much more capable than most people make it out to be. Out of 2"~ barrels it's objectively superior to .22 LR, so if you're going to have a gun that small and have to choose between .22 and .25, go for .25 Auto. Ammo is more expensive but it penetrates better and ignition and function will be more reliable.

 

[WestKentucky]

How nice would a cricket rifle or other tiny bolt action be for a backpack gun if chambered in 25acp?? Better ammo plus all the great bits that the 22 gets.

 

[Gun Master]

.25ACP vs .22LR

I know I'd rather not be a guinea pig to test either the .22 or the .25 (for being the recipient of the bullet).

This debate has been going on for eons, it seems. Ballistically, they are pretty close to the same, which continues the issue. The main ammo difference is the .25 can be FMJ, and the .22 is the softer lead. Both can be in HP. One penetration, and the other expansion.

I have one .25ACP.

I have 8 .22LR's.

Why the disparity ? I believe the answer is diversity.

The .25 is a small semi-auto pistol, which can be conveniently stowed away, in certain circumstances. Its usefulness is undeniable.

Of the .22's, I own the following :
A small semi-auto pistol about the size of the above .25.
Three larger semi-autopistols.
Two double action medium sized revolvers.
Two semi-auto rifles. One has a collapsible stock.

The main guns using .25 are small semi-autos like the one I own. The only other .25 firearm I can think of is, the occasional cheap and unreliable double barrel derringer. No larger semi-auto pistols, no revolvers, and no rifles.

Variety is the spice of life !

Oh, by the way, I'm thinking about buying a single action .22 (LR / Magnum) revolver later this month.

 

[WestKentucky]

New (arguably better) thought. Find a 25-20 and make a conversion cartridge.

Scratch that, 25-20 is rifle diameter of .257

 

[kefefs]

How nice would a cricket rifle or other tiny bolt action be for a backpack gun if chambered in 25acp?? Better ammo plus all the great bits that the 22 gets.

.25 Auto was purpose built for small pistols, and all the ammo out there is as well. Out of a rifle-length barrel (16") it's outperformed by .22 LR.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/25auto.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

 

[gym]

It will kill you just as fast a any other bullet with a well placed shot., Just not useful on a steady basis.

 

[frankmako]

back in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's i carried a Beretta jetfire in 25 acp as backup gun on the job. not a bad pocket gun for the time. now when the kel tec p32 and p3at came along the jetfire when into the gun safe. the rule with a small pocket gun is to have a gun in ones pocket, not home or in the car. the 25 acp can and has done the job. you dump a full mag into someone and the fight of that person will go away. on the job i have seen many killed with the 25 acp. so you can make fun of the 25 acp, but i don't see many that would like to be shot with one.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Never should have sold that Ortgies years ago. Now you guys have done it with your four pages of praise, I gotta buy another one!

 

[Gun Master]

Ortgies .25

Never should have sold that Ortgies years ago. Now you guys have done it with your four pages of praise, I gotta buy another one!

Do you still have the Ortgies buyer's address and phone# ?