badger brown
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The best as in the most accurate and the most powerful out to 300 yards for hunting in Colorado? With iron sights.
What is the best .50 cal. ML
- Thread starter badger brown
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At 300 yards under anything like normal hunting conditions, with iron sites,no muzzleloader would be appropriate IMO. The thinnest of front site blades would completely cover up at least the whole chest of a deer. The rainbow tradgectory of a 50cal would require perfect range finding,and you would need a rock steady rest and also often have cross winds to deal with. Even with a good scope you would still have to know exact range and hold over with a rock steady rest. There are more than likely plenty of folks that could HIT a deer with a 50cal at 300 yards with iron sites, but making a sure in the vitals hit would just be luck. A muzzleloader just is not a 300 yard gun for big game hunting.
Patocazador
Member
If muzzleloaders would do the same as centerfires, there would be no need for a muzzleload season.
I agree with kituwa.
I agree with kituwa.
What are the law's in CO? Can you use Sabots, 209 primer ignition, what are the minimum bullet weights? A 50 cal is a 50 cal when it comes to power and were you get your speed is powder and bullet choice. That being said will you be able to hold over something around 42 inches with iron sights to make a 300 yard shot?
With my set up, .50 cal shooting 300 grain XTP's and 110 grains of BH209 at a muzzle velocity of 1930fps I'm at 42 inches of drop at 300 yards. That's like holding over a deer's back by 34" or an elk 30". Coming up with 3 feet of hold over is hard enough to do with a 1x scope let alone iron sights. Maybe if I was running a MOA scope with a little more then 1X and conditions were perfect I might think about pushing a 300 yard shot but since I can only have a 1X scope and conditions are never perfect I don't have to worry about it.
As for most accurate that also depends on what ammo you are going to shoot. Any good quality muzzy can shoot good if one takes the time to figure out what the rifle likes. I picked up an old Knight .54 with rusty barrel which I cleaned up and it now shoots around a 1 inch group at 100 yards. My new Traditions striker fire rifle will shoot under 1" at 100 yards with the load I have for it, that is if I put a 3x9 scope on it so I can see the target good enough for accuracy work. Both rifles are sighted in at 50 yards with there fine 1X scopes.
With my set up, .50 cal shooting 300 grain XTP's and 110 grains of BH209 at a muzzle velocity of 1930fps I'm at 42 inches of drop at 300 yards. That's like holding over a deer's back by 34" or an elk 30". Coming up with 3 feet of hold over is hard enough to do with a 1x scope let alone iron sights. Maybe if I was running a MOA scope with a little more then 1X and conditions were perfect I might think about pushing a 300 yard shot but since I can only have a 1X scope and conditions are never perfect I don't have to worry about it.
As for most accurate that also depends on what ammo you are going to shoot. Any good quality muzzy can shoot good if one takes the time to figure out what the rifle likes. I picked up an old Knight .54 with rusty barrel which I cleaned up and it now shoots around a 1 inch group at 100 yards. My new Traditions striker fire rifle will shoot under 1" at 100 yards with the load I have for it, that is if I put a 3x9 scope on it so I can see the target good enough for accuracy work. Both rifles are sighted in at 50 yards with there fine 1X scopes.
If you believe hype, go to the "Ultimate Muzzle Loader" page. They took a 700 Rem ML, fitted it with a special barrel and breech that takes a pistol case/primer and say that you can use (I think) up to 4 pellets for over 2300 fps.
Still gonna be a lot of drop and I agree with the iron sight problem.
Still gonna be a lot of drop and I agree with the iron sight problem.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Badger Brown You might, just might, get an inline shooting a sabot, to be able to reach out accurately to 300 yards....but you're going to need a scope. This has already been mentioned.
Back in 1863, one of the world's most famous big game, and dangerous big game, hunters, was an Englishman named John Forsyth in India. In fact, since he was going after tiger, rhino, and elephant, he wanted a huge projectile, with plenty of velocity, and as flat a trajectory as possible, and he didn't have access to a reliable optic sight. So he came up with Forsyth rifling.
Even with his custom rifling....his absolute max range...was 200 yards. Yet although his rifles would shoot well enough to be accurate out to 200 yards, he had not encountered a situation beyond 150 yards where it would've been possible to make a shot, and he, himself, and not taken big game, dangerous or otherwise, at more than 100 yards.
Now, of course, he never hunted on the plains of North America...so his observations may not apply to where you are, but I'd suggest you get a rifle that shoots a .45 caliber, conical projectile, that is known to be accurate out to 200 yards. Now that might be a .45 or it might be a .50 shooting a sabot holding a .45 caliber projectile.
The Tryon Creedmoor, and the Tryon Match as well as the Gibbs Rifle will all reach out 300 yards and farther but...
As mentioned, they are being used on known-distance target ranges, and the scoring areas are often much larger than what you'd need to hold for a group to be a successful hunter.
LD
Back in 1863, one of the world's most famous big game, and dangerous big game, hunters, was an Englishman named John Forsyth in India. In fact, since he was going after tiger, rhino, and elephant, he wanted a huge projectile, with plenty of velocity, and as flat a trajectory as possible, and he didn't have access to a reliable optic sight. So he came up with Forsyth rifling.
Even with his custom rifling....his absolute max range...was 200 yards. Yet although his rifles would shoot well enough to be accurate out to 200 yards, he had not encountered a situation beyond 150 yards where it would've been possible to make a shot, and he, himself, and not taken big game, dangerous or otherwise, at more than 100 yards.
Now, of course, he never hunted on the plains of North America...so his observations may not apply to where you are, but I'd suggest you get a rifle that shoots a .45 caliber, conical projectile, that is known to be accurate out to 200 yards. Now that might be a .45 or it might be a .50 shooting a sabot holding a .45 caliber projectile.
The Tryon Creedmoor, and the Tryon Match as well as the Gibbs Rifle will all reach out 300 yards and farther but...
As mentioned, they are being used on known-distance target ranges, and the scoring areas are often much larger than what you'd need to hold for a group to be a successful hunter.
LD
Oops. I see Remington themselves are now selling the 700 and calling it the "Ultimate".
My information was from a five or six year old Michigan "outdoor" tabloid with a hype filled article about a new company making the "Ultimate" muzzleloader and claiming easy kills out to 400 and 500 yards.
Looks like Remington took it over.
My information was from a five or six year old Michigan "outdoor" tabloid with a hype filled article about a new company making the "Ultimate" muzzleloader and claiming easy kills out to 400 and 500 yards.
Looks like Remington took it over.
badger brown
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Thanks for all of your replies! I told my boss the same things that you are telling me. Then I told him about the cva accurate v2 with around 1 moa and he said " CVA, can you find me something about $1000" and it hit me, he is trying to find a gun more expensive like the Remington but not the Remington.
So thanks for all of the replies!!
Badger
So thanks for all of the replies!!
Badger
frontiergander
Member
300 yards?!! Ive lived in CO most of my life and have yet to see anyone shoot an animal at 300 yards with an open sight muzzy. Ain't going to happen IMO, especially since we are limited to conicals. Imagine the wind drift at 300 with a 10-15 MPH wind.
Arkansas Paul
Member
I wonder if the many stories like this one is the reason they're not made anymore.
WARNING. THIS LINK CONTAINS PHOTOGRAPHS OF A GRAPHIC INJURY. IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH, JUST DON'T CLICK ON IT.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=11187.0
Plus, one would have to look at Colorado's laws concerning smokeless muzzleloaders, if there is even a mention of that topic.
I know they used to prohibit scopes, and at one time I think they even prohibited in line muzzleloaders but I'm not 100% certain about that.
Anyway, I agree with the others who say that 300 yds with a ML is impractical.
The primitive seasons are there because it is harder.
frontiergander
Member
no smokeless powder, no sabots, no scopes, no pellet powder.
zimmerstutzen
Member
certainly possible, but not with a round ball gun. A long barrel with fine sights and a long bullet will do it with ease, if you have a rest to shoot from. Most accurate open sight gun I had was an 1884 trapdoor. but the Buffington sights were the ace in the hole. Certainly much to fine for snap offhand shooting. Similar fine sights from an old fashioned bullet barrel muzzle loader, like a rigby and 300 yds is cake.
However, you want a 45 cal not so much a 50. A 500 grain 45 bullet has less air resistance than anything 50 cal. Those fancy inlines with their stubby little 50 cal 245 grain bullets just don't keep stable much beyond 200 yds. Not compared to a 500 grain 45 cal bullet, which remains stable to 800 or so yds.
There was once a web sight devoted to long range muzzle loading, by that name I think. It discussed the type of equipment and ranges. (To 1,000 as I recall) No remington retro designed rifle can match those old long range guns.
However, you want a 45 cal not so much a 50. A 500 grain 45 bullet has less air resistance than anything 50 cal. Those fancy inlines with their stubby little 50 cal 245 grain bullets just don't keep stable much beyond 200 yds. Not compared to a 500 grain 45 cal bullet, which remains stable to 800 or so yds.
There was once a web sight devoted to long range muzzle loading, by that name I think. It discussed the type of equipment and ranges. (To 1,000 as I recall) No remington retro designed rifle can match those old long range guns.
frontiergander
Member
you wont see a deer at 300 yards with open sights. And my guess for colorado, hes going for elk. Which is 50cal minimum restriction.
Patocazador
Member
If you want LOOOOONG with a muzzleloader, check this out. Notice how close he gets to the bullseye with multiple tries.
http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?64372-Long-Shot
http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/showthread.php?64372-Long-Shot
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200 yards is about maximum for most practiced riflemen. An Olympic quality shooter can push it farther and Walther Kline proved with a duplex loaded, .53 caliber round ball rifle can hit with a forty percent probability a man sized target at 600 yards.
There's a reason why the minie rifle replaced the round ball. Besides the minie ball was undersized, it loaded as fast as a musket. The rifled barrel enabled a soldier to hit a man sized object at 500 yards; much further than the round ball rifle. With practice, you can hit a target at 300 yards with a minie gun.
There's a reason why the minie rifle replaced the round ball. Besides the minie ball was undersized, it loaded as fast as a musket. The rifled barrel enabled a soldier to hit a man sized object at 500 yards; much further than the round ball rifle. With practice, you can hit a target at 300 yards with a minie gun.
ThomasT
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I bet those are tough to stuff down a 50 caliber barrel.
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