What makes a '1911' a '1911'?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DragonFire

Member
Joined
May 26, 2004
Messages
509
Location
Greeneville,TN
Okay, I'm mostly a revolver kind of guy, so tell me, what makes a handgun a '1911'?

I'm not asking what makes a 1911 a good 1911, but what does a gun have to have (or not have) to be classified as a 1911?

The original design has been changed over the years, and lots of different manufacturers offer their own models. Lots of similarities and lots of differences. So makes them all a 1911?
 
To me its the trigger that defines the 1911 design. No other safe to carry, non-target gun can come close.

--wally.
 
The basic design adopted date

John M Browning's design was adopted by US Goverment on March of 1911. This is why it the Goverment .45acp is referred to as the 1911. :)
 
Looking at existant pistols which are generally referred to as "1911"'s, including modern single stacks, Paras, STI, SV, they all have the following traits of the original:

1. rounded barrel lugs and a link connecting it to the slide stop
2. thumb safety
3. grip safety, even if disabled
4. external hammer
5. SAO 1911 type trigger

The Para LDA does not have #5, and it's arguable if it's 1911-like enough. I don't like it and would never get a DA "1911".

-z
 
A more involved question than it appears at first blush.

"What makes a '1911' a '1911'?"

The Pistol, Model of 1911, as cerberus stated, was adopted by the U. S. Government that year. It is a very specific design, developed by John Browning in cooperation with Colt's Firearms Company. Once adopted by the government, contracts were let to other companies to build it, and a relatively small number were produced by the original Springfield Armory.

In the original form, the 1911 was a recoil operated arm, with locking accomplished by barrel ribs mating with cuts inside the slide. Unlocking took place by means of a link pinned to the frame pulling the rear of the barrel downward as the locked barrel/slide moving rearward.

Standard barrel length: five inches
Ammunition supply: detachable seven round magazine, retained by a transverse catch located rear of the trigger..
Firing mechanism: Sliding trigger (non-pivoting) trips exposed hammer, to impact an inertial firing pin.
Thumb safety at left rear of frame.
Grip safety pivoted on thumb safety axle.
External slide lock above trigger; engages automatically when magazine is empty.

The model 1911 was updated in 1924 to the model 1911A1. This mainly entailed clearance cuts in the frame behind the trigger, longer grip safety tang, shorter hammer spur, making the flat mainspring housing into an arched configuration, and better sights. The 1911A1 series is still recognizable as the 1911. The Colt Commander, a shorter (4-1/4 inch barrel) version with aluminum alloy frame was introduced in 1949. While distinct from the "Government Model," it is still part of the 1911 family. Even shorter and lighter versions were introduced into the Colt's commercial line, direct descendants of the original 1911, but with limited arts interchange capability.

Originally, all 1911 pistols were in caliber .45. Later on, the basic design has been chambered for various other cartridges. The Colt Ace model was a .22 rim fire version, using the basic 1911 frame, with different slide, barrel, and magazine, and without the lockup system.

DragonFire, you wrote - -
The original design has been changed over the years, and lots of different manufacturers offer their own models. Lots of similarities and lots of differences. So makes them all a 1911?
Clearly, not all semi automatic .45 pistols are 1911s. Some versions are direct "clones" of the original, and others are distinctly different designs. I'd say that only the versions with a high degree of interchangeability with the original may be considered "1911s." These would include the Argentinean Sistema 1927 and the Norwegian 1914 models. Others, such as the Star, Astra, Llama, and Obregon designs, while paying homage to the 1911 inspiration, cannot be considered such.

Only part of the entire story - - -

Best,
Johnny
 
Here's a simple way to tell. If you disassembled an original 1911 Army pistol, (or an EXACT replica thereof) and the pistol "in question", one should be able to replace any number of the "in question" pistol's parts with the corresponding part(s) from the Army pistol, and still have a functioning pistol. How rigorous one wants to be, considereing that a certain amount of fitting has to be done even between pistols from the same manufacturer, is left to you - I would consider that if NO MORE fitting is needed than if the part had to be replaced with one from the manufacturer, AND the "major" parts are the same dimensions, then the "in question" pistol is a "1911", (this would cover just about every 5" clone of the 1911, with one caveat - if the pistol "in question" has a firing pin safety, a la the Series 80, such variation, PROVIDED that that is the only cause of non-onterchangability, shall not rule out a pistol from being a "1911"). If you can swap the parts, but the "in question" pistol's original slide, frame, or barrel is of different dimensions (or radically diffferent materials), the pistol in question is a "variant of the model of 1911", (Commander, Officer's Model, Long Slide, etc.). If the pistol "in question" can only exchange a few, or no parts, but is otherwise dimensionally similar, uses a tiliting-barrel recoil-operated action, has an exposed hammer, and has the controls in the same place (with the exception of the grip safety), it is a pistol "inspired by the 1911", (Llama, Ballaster Molina, Star, etc.). If a pistol passes the immediately previous test, EXCEPT that it's dimensions are closer to a variant of the 1911, then the pistol "in question" is "inspired by the (whatever) variant of the 1911". If the pistol "in question" has a substantial dimensional difference, operates by a different method, or both, it "has the same control layout, (acceptable alternative expression: "manual of arms"...) as the familiar 1911", (tokarev, Colt Mustang). If only a portion of the 1911 can swap over, (almost always the frame and attached parts, excluding magazine), then this special case is a "(whatever) on a 1911 frame and trigger group", (examples, Collt ACE 22 conversion unit, some single-shot rigs, etc.)
 
"The model 1911 was updated in 1924 to the model 1911A1."

Some folks would have you believe that this is the only recorded example of a government committee actually improving something. :scrutiny:

John
 
...going to have to exclude "sights and/or sighting/pointing/illuminating devices and their attachment points" as deal breakers as well, lest a BoMar or light rail "disqualify" a weapon...
 
I can't really say what makes a 1911 a 1911. Most of the features I can think of could, potentially, be place on another pistol. It has to LOOK like a 1911, I suppose. And be single action. Uhhh... mostly the same working parts as a military 1911/-A1.

COLT all the others just copies

Guess those Remington-Rand 1911s never existed then, eh? :neener:

*mumbles something about "bloody Colt loonies"*
 
A 1911 is a copy of a pistol designed for the Army by JMB. Some of the purists may not consider wide-bodies such as Caspians, Paras and STI as 1911s, but theyre still pretty much the same design IMO with a fatter grip and more rounds. I'm sure JMB wouldnt have any problems detail stripping a 1911 that came from the factory today. Of course, he might some trouble getting a series 80 or series II type safety out or back in, but I'm guessing he was pretty smart guy so I think he'd manage (maybe he could figure out what problem the FLGR is supposed to solve while he's t it).

A 408 stroker built with a Dart block, Eagle H-beam rods, JP pistons, custom grind cam, and ARP hardware holding it all together, is still a small-block Ford, much like a 221 from 1962.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top