What makes an 870 "slick" ...and how slick is too slick?

[btg3]

My experience with 870s is limited to 5 years with 5 guns wherein I have observed:

1. Straightening and aligning action bars will improve both Express and Wingmaster "slickness".
2. Same goes for cleaning and some light oil.
3. An Express receiver and mag tube can be lightly deburred and polished such that the action bars will be as "slick" as a Wingmaster.
4. With the trigger group and bolt removed, an otherwise slick action is only hindered by the shell latches.
5. With the bolt installed, the extractor spring can detract from slickness.
6. With the trigger group installed, the hammer/spring and carrier/spring can detract from slickness.
7. Where springs are involved (shell latches, extractor, hammer, carrier) polishing and lubricating the loading surfaces aids slickness.

After all of the above is attended to, I find that the springs are the remaining deterrent to slickness. Thus, to achieve the holy grail of slickness for an 870, I'm thinking a certain amount of spring fatigue is required -- for the shell latches, hammer and carrier.

I submit that:
1. There's no such thing as an out-of-the box Wingmaster that is truly slick because the springs are not fatigued.
2. My used Express is significantly slicker than a new Wingmaster.
3. 870s that are so slick that the action will slide with almost no resistance, may experience some reliability issues in their new future due to spring fatigue -- or else there is an aftermarket opportunity for lighter springs toward achieving instant gratification via slickness.

Hopefully avoiding the semantics and subjectivity of this topic and focusing on "slickness", please critique where is my thinking in error and what other factors impact slickness for an 870 action.

Thanks in advance for all enlightening and constructive responses.

 

[LeonCarr]

Just take it out and shoot it . It will slick it up, and you will learn about what you and your shotgun can do.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[JohnBT]

I bought a 12 ga. Express in 1993 for saltwater duck hunting.
It wasn't nearly as slick as my uncle's very early Wingmaster. In fact, it wasn't slick at all.

After a couple of years of using the Express, I found myself at home with the flu one day and I was really, really bored.

I took some Flitz metal polish and proceeded to rack the slide 1500 to 2000 times, changing the polish a couple of times along the way. It made it a lot slicker. (I counted the strokes to 1500 and then lost track.)

I wonder when it's going to fail?

Using headphones to watch tv and listen to music helps drown out the racket.

 

[dprice3844444]

but john,did it improve your love life any?(ducking)

 

[red rick]

My stock 870p was slick enough out the box for me. I quess its different strokes for different folks.

 

[btg3]

Ok... please limit all further discussion to spring fatigue in the context of 870 slickness.
Thanks.

 

[JohnBT]

Spring fatigue? I've never seen it in a pump.

My 1993 Express still works, still has the original springs and is still slick from all that shucking while slathered in Flitz. Why do you think using a pump gun will weaken or ruin the springs? Look at all the Model 12s still being used with the original springs; not that all of them were made in 1912, but some are many decades old.

The Technoid at shotgun report recommended replacing the main spring in a Remington 1100 every 10,000 rounds to protect the receiver from damage. And that's an autoloader. There just isn't that much work load on a spring in a pump shotgun.

I don't think it's springs keeping a new Wingmaster from being really slick. I think it's the same micro burrs that all guns have. The metal only looks perfectly smooth, but it really isn't until it's used a little and gets burnished.

So that's my answer - burnishing, break-in or whatever you call it when two well-fitted pieces of metal rub together.

John

edited to add: The word I'm looking for is asperities.

Smooth surfaces, even those polished to a mirror finish, are not truly smooth on an atomic scale. They are rough, with sharp, rough or rugged projections, termed Asperities*. Friction and wear originate at these points.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

I took a sightly different approach. I repeatedly racked my brand new 870 Express a bunch of times (being sure the 870 is absolutely indestructible). Then I disassembled it & polished (Mother's Mag Wheel Polish) everywhere the new finish showed wear. That way, it started the shooting break-in with a head start. No, I don't think I accelerated the "worn-out" timeframe too much. And, IMHO, there's no such thing as too slick (within the bounds of practical reason).

 

[Virginian]

I don't think it's spring fatigue, but the contact surfaces of the springs and their mating parts wearing in will affect slickness. How does the extractor spring affect anything? Did you mean ejector spring?
You can slick your Express all you want, but it will never be a Wingmaster. I have had 5 of them, and never had to straighten or polish anything.

 

[btg3]

Extractor was an error -- and thanks for catching it.

Perhaps we have a debate as to whether it is spring fatigue or the friction between spring-loaded mating surfaces that primarily affects slickness?

For reasons other than slickness, I'll agree that an Express will never be a Wingmaster. However, an Express can be every bit as slick as a Wingmaster, and moreso for a given gun. Just pursue the same fit and finish that the factory does for the involved moving parts and perhaps go a step further. It's not rocket science.

I have 2 Wingmasters and 3 Express. Although the Wingmasters are older (1956 and 1959), they appear to have been shot less. None of these 5 guns have had years of steady use, but neither of the Wingmasters are as slick as one of the Express that I've smoothed out.

Regardless, when others have posted that the action on their Wingmaster is "so smooth it will free-fall up or down which ever way the barrel is pointed" I am skeptical. Either the shell latches/hammer/carrier springs are fatigued, or (as pointed out by the last 3 posts) there is negligible friction due to high polish of the contacted surfaces.

I like the approach of polishing where the wear is evident. I can agree that smooth surfaces are primary over the spring force of the latches. Also, I think that for those reportedly super slick 870s, we can assume that the hammer is already cocked. This leaves the carrier spring and associated surfaces.

Looking again at the action without bolt... As the action is opened, I can see the slide block contact the carrier dog (to lift the carrier). And as the action is closed, the slide block contacts the carrier directly (to push the carrier back down). These 2 points of contact seem to be the main resistance while stroking the action in either direction. Frankly, I had previously overlooked this and will give these areas some attention.

Thanks for your input and for being a sounding board.

 

[bassdogs]

OK, what am I missing? Why is "slickness" important beyond the level where racking a shell is a smooth effortless motion? Locked and loaded, my 870 is locked up solid and ready for service. After a drop of the hammer, the re-rack is smooth and effortless. So what am I missing?

 

[btg3]

^^^^ You are missing nothing. But surely you will allow different-strokes-for-different-folks.

My strokes happen to be as follows:
1. 870 slickness is not the sole province of Wingmasters. Express can be just as slick. Thus bragging rights for Wingmasters goes down one peg in my estimation.
2. I have one Wingmaster that was far from slick and needed attention to restore it to proper function. Understanding the function also gives insight as to slickness, so why not do the job to the best of my ability and make it slick, as opposed to serviceable.

 

[JohnBT]

"Why is "slickness" important"

I can't stand gritty feeling gun actions, shotguns or any kind of gun. That's just me.

When I was a little kid in the '50s my father bought a 20 ga. Model 12. I was spoiled by it. My uncle had a first or second year Wingmaster. When I bought an Express in '93 to hunt saltwater ducks I just couldn't stand the action the way it was - it felt like it was full of sand.

 

[Dave McCracken]

John, that's exactly the way a Model 12 fanboy buddy describes shooting an 870, like a 12 that's full of sand.

37s, 12s, 31s all seem to shuck slicker than the 870s do. 97s are smooth but it still takes more arm to overcome all the inertia of those massive parts.

Here's my methods for slicking up 870s.

Slow method, run a few thousand shells through it.

Faster method, once sure it's unloaded, rack it continously through an episode of Jeopardy. Disassemble, then polish all the wear marks on the action bars with something like a Fine Arkansas stone, emory cloth or a crockstick. Radius the action bars slightly and remove the flashing left by the stamping process.

Use a straightedge to make sure the bars are parallel and straight, lube and reassemble.

Finish by running a few thousand rounds through it like Method One.....

 

[JohnBT]

A buddy of mine has always joked that the best way to smooth one up is to cycle the action after you stuff it full of peanut butter. If the gun is really rough or rusty he says to use chunky.

 

[Tom Held]

slickness

Set on a rack next to a Model 12 for a couple of weeks. Maybe some of the karma will transfer. Or just buy a model 12 or 31. You don't have to spend a bundle. I picked up a 1945 Model 31 that was upgraded by Simmons to a trap gun with a vent rib, re-blued, and monte carlo stock last week off of this site for $550 in near perfect shape. Tom

 

[Dave McCracken]

That's not quite larceny, Tom. Maybe I'll get to see that 31 soon.

 

[CSA 357]

now we are talking smooth pump shot guns! the mod 12 winchester, i have two that you can push the release and it will open all the way up by itself!

 

[btg3]

^^^^ Given that Winchester 12 weighs more than a Wingmaster, if that weight is contained in the action, wouldn't it assist the action falling open? I guess what I am asking is whether the action is smoother or just weighs more. How much weight would you have to add to any shotgun to make the action fall open?

 

[desmohead!]

btg3's observations/comments are of the best I have seen re 870 smoothness. Regarding spring loading, i will say this:

1. I am amazed at how little this subject is discussed admist the vast amount on smoothing an 870.
2. I suspect that years ago the hammer and carrier dog spring rates were lower because there was no plastic housings to more easily embed dirt particals thus increasing friction even after cleanings.
3. Since plastic cold flows under load (creep), I suspect that spring preloads have been increased over the years to cover that.

What I have done with my 11/2011 express beyond all the other smoothing, shooting, cycling, is to radius the slide assembly where initial contact is made with the hammer and carrier dog.

Besides oil in the usual locations, I use grease on all ramps and all other low surface area/high contact pressure locations.

Mine has 300 rounds thru it and 5000 cycles. BTW, nearly all formed metal, especially high strength spring metals has initial internal (static) stress that reduces over time wheather loaded or unloaded and this will to a small degree affect spring rate (inch of deflection/lbs load). A compressed spring stored will not change apreaciably faster or greater than a uncompressed spring. The plastic trigger group housing will flow and the spring coil end will dig in and reduce preload slightly.

 

[fatcat4620]

Dude quit over analyzing it and go shoot the snot out if it. That is the answer not spring fatigue and whatnot.

 

[desmohead!]

Look, on a new gun the hammer and carrier dog springs ARE the signifigant resistance once all the friction stuff is taken care of. That said, shooting it, has two benificial results in the springs, first it cycles the springs, but more importantly it shocks the springs and stress relives them similar to vibratory and hammering stress reduction used for weldments and castings. Same is true for thermal cycling. So yes shot and shot some more..

Some of us just like to know why.

 

[Virginian]

Look, on a new gun the hammer and carrier dog springs ARE the signifigant resistance once all the friction stuff is taken care of. That said, shooting it, has two benificial results in the springs, first it cycles the springs, but more importantly it shocks the springs and stress relives them similar to vibratory and hammering stress reduction used for weldments and castings. Same is true for thermal cycling. So yes shot and shot some more..

Some of us just like to know why.

It doesn't stress relieve doodly. You are making uninformed assumptions. Go to the library and check out Shigley's Machine Design for starters. They do not use hammering or vibration on casting for stress relief. When you finish that come back and we will provide further guidance.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Just take it out and shoot it . It will slick it up, and you will learn about what you and your shotgun can do.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Shoot the snot out of it.

 

[btg3]

Just take it out and shoot it . It will slick it up, and you will learn about what you and your shotgun can do.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Keep the change

Shoot the snot out of it.

I've heard that technique is used to clean muzzle loaders. With smokeless powder, I just use Hoppes.