What makes some 1911s so expensive?

[snorky18]

So I don't know much about 1911s, but they really seem to run the gamut in terms of price.

When I first got more interested in firearms (not that long ago), I was under the impression that 1911s started at maybe $800ish and climbed into the upper heavens if you wanted something "custom".

Then I find out about Rock Island Arms, and that people for the most part seem to like them, and you can get a new 1911 for $400 out the door. Maybe not the nicest gun in the gun shop, but something that looks decent (good fit and finish), is decent quality, and most importantly functions just fine.

So what makes people pay $800 and up in price for Kimbers etc.? Anything besides brand recognition?

Or is pretty much analogus to me and my buddy both needing a truck to haul stuff, I decide on a 10 year old F-150 for $3K, he decides on a new GMC Denali for $42K because it's nicer, cushier, newer, and prettier, and in the end we both own trucks that can haul stuff, I am simply less concerned about scratching mine?

 

[BHP FAN]

The price,on anything- is whatever the consumer is willing to pay.That's why I bought a $ 400.00 Rock Island GI. .45.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

the frames and slides are complicated to mill. good ones are forged steel, lesser ones are cast. small parts are complicated as well... the cheaps 1911 use a lot of metal injected molded parts... basically high pressure jb weld

 

[HorseSoldier]

Labor costs for one thing -- a Rock Island made with Filipino labor (or a Taurus PT1911 made with Brazilian labor, or a Norinco if we could still import them, etc) is not going to cost as much as the same pistol made by American workers or in some other country with similar pay scales. Especially the 1911, which requires a lot of hands on work compared to more modern designs.

 

[Javelin]

There is a huge difference in production (Springfield, Kimber, Smith), semi-customs (such as Wilson Combat, Les Baer, etc), and fully custom (such as Ed Brown, Infinity, etc).

Where is Bac to answer this question/

 

[doubs43]

A lot of factors figure into the cost of various 1911's. Supply and demand play a part. Right now, finding certain RIA 1911's is difficult as people discover the quality that can be had for considerably less than the better known big names.

Labor is certainly a factor as has been pointed out already. Custom features increase cost and price. Stainless steel will take the price skyward.

Brand names such as Colt will command a higher price. Reputation such as that enjoyed by Springfield Armory raises the price.

I own two 1911's...... a 1927 Argentine that is as reliable as Ol' Faithful and a new RIA Tactical. I've put 242 rounds through the Tactical so far. All were reloads and used FMJ and cast RN bullets plus two different 200 grain SWC designs. At round #69 I had a failure to feed that was caused by the case rim that had been nicked pretty badly. Otherwise, it's been completely reliable with six or seven different magazines. At $510 OTD, I think that's pretty good value for the money. Accuracy is pretty darn good too.

 

[Hostile Amish]

Try to make one.

You'll appreciate what the gunsmiths do super fast.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

what gunsmiths? i thought they were parts assemblers these days

 

[Gunz]

I think driving an Aston Martin vs. a Saturn Skye reflects on the owner's ability or wilingness to invest/express his financial status and taste for exclusivity of meticulous attention to detail and materials.

The new RIA have really shown how plain pistols at affordable price points and solid performance win people over. Is that not what COlt and SPringfield did about 20 years ago with the plain models?

These days, every manufacturer takes the basic design and gives some variation of the features to set apart from others.

The 1911 is still a 1911. The Les Baers still jam like a Taurus 1911 if certain operating parameters are not followed as prescribed (certain ammo types, etc.). Still, they command a panache for man-jewelry.

I think over the years, I have purchased 1911s which I could afford at various phases in life. I have a lowly pot-metal Llama, to the Colts, Springfields, to the Les Baer. They all go bang with 230gr FMJ if I keep them cleaned, and lubricated. Luckily, none of them have had any major component failure if I need to use the gun in a life defense situation. Then again, I have lived a rather charmed life by avoiding trouble situations.

Buy what you can afford, and have fun with it, and as you gorw older, and more financially established, buy the more fancy ones.

 

[jpwilly]

First let me answer the OP. The 1911 design has been around for a long time. "custom 1911's" are relatively new. Use to be you could by a Colt 1911 and send it to a gunsmith to get it to work right. While it was there you "customized it" and made it your own. Custom 1911 makers grew out of this environment. Eventually the market for "custom" 1911's took off so much so that companies like Kimber began to offer production line models with all the "custom" features driving down the cost and delivering a good overall product. Today Springfield, Rock Island, Taurus, Smith and Wesson etc etc have all come out with "custom like" 1911 models at prices the working public can afford. The Taurus for example has a forged frame and slide a feature usually only found on more expensive models but the rest of the parts are mostly MIM and overall just as good as milled and forged parts but looked down upon because there's a small chance a void formed in the injection process and the part could break. Also like others stated the 1911 has lots of parts and they all have to be fitted making the manufacture of the pistol more labor intensive and costly.

The Les Baers still jam like a Taurus 1911

Speak for yourself my PT1911 doesn't jam with HP's or Ball...in fact the only jam I've every gotten with it were Semi Wad cutters that weren't crimped (my fault at the reloading bench) It feed the SWC ammo that was crimped...I'd like to see some of those custom 1911's do that.

I think driving an Aston Martin vs. a Saturn Skye reflects on the owner's ability or willingness to invest/express his financial status and taste for exclusivity of meticulous attention to detail and materials.

Yea...more like you've made enough money to buy yourself some class...If we were all million airs we could all have this false sense of style because we could buy the best. Sorry don't agree one bit.

 

[gunnie]

snorky18

i find little difference in how well an RIA/kimber/colt/springfield go "bang". i own/have owned MANY of these four flavors.

some polishing, throating and ejection port work will make most any decently made 1911 do the "bang" trick. an old combat commander i owned would even feed empty brass out of the magazine, no real magic going on with that. but getting the lead out is only wasting money if it doesn't hit a target.

when things go bump in the night, i want a surefire with tritium night sights and an excellent trigger on the bedside iron. one doesn't need to buy the way-high end iron to get these features any more.

my thanks to kimber and springfield for making that statement possible.

when i bought my first 1911, miniscule sights, that were prone to shed the front [staked] blade were what COLT was offering on everything except the gold cup. i will admit the gold cup front sight seemed to hang on better due to the longer bore it was held/staked in place with. worse still, if one wanted a boxcar, there were NO other choices except llama, and one of those that i looked at for sale used had a visible depression on the breech face from the brass hammering it repeatedly. with such a spartan training background, i was amused at all of the tacticool offerings that started to appear in the '90's. to use one of jeff cooper's phrases, "a cure for a problem that doesn't exist." then i tried one with a light and night sights...if it could turn the head of a dyed in the wool olde schooler like itself, you may be swayed also!!!

check out a buddy's boxcar that is equipped with these features in actual night time use before YOU decide on which flavor to purchase for saving your assets. i think it'll change your mind.

i see where colt has even "seen the light" with some of their upcoming 1911 offerings.

gunnie

 

[woad_yurt]

What makes some 1911s so expensive?

People are willing to pay.

 

[axeman_g]

hype

 

[paul45]

the cheaps 1911 use a lot of metal injected molded parts...

Huh.....makes me wonder why Mimbers are so expensive then........

 

[rbernie]

the cheaps 1911 use a lot of metal injected molded parts... basically high pressure jb weld

This is a patently silly statement that has zero basis in fact and displays no knowledge of engineering materials. MIM parts are used in most jet engines and other very critical applications... Do a search here for MIM and you'll pull up a ton of material, some of which will actually be useful and teach some good stuff.

Expensive 1911s are expensive because you're paying for labor and QA of the materials used. The extra labor is used to handfit the parts to verify the fitment and quality at multiple steps along the way, and the extra-cost parts are manufactured under more controlled conditions (forging vs casting, narrow and specifc alloy specifications, etc.) and verified (via testing) before use in assembly.

The least expensive 1911s are bulk-assembled from bins of generic parts and are shipped so long as they go BANG! during the factory test fire at the end of the assembly line. More expensive 1911s have more QA checks along the way and may try to have the assembly line test-fit parts to find a good fit, and likely have a tighter spec for the materials used for the manufacture of the individual piece-parts. Custom high-dollar guns are truely hand-made works using the builder's notion of the best available materials. Handling a sample of each is tangible proof of the differences.

 

[rdhood]

This is a patently silly statement that has zero basis in fact and displays no knowledge of engineering materials. MIM parts are used in most jet engines and other very critical applications... Do a search here for MIM and you'll pull up a ton of material, some of which will actually be useful and teach some good stuff.

Ditto. I bought an RIA Tactical, determined which parts were MIM (there are exactly 5) and then determined if any of the "most likely to break" parts were MIM. I used this source, among others:

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=271

and

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=447941&page=2

In short, there were two "most likely to fail" MIM parts in the RIA Tactical: the slide stop and ejector. I replaced both of these straight away. It added a total of about $40 to the gun. I did not replace the three other "not prone to failure" MIM parts because there is simply no logical reason to do so.

 

[Nuke8401]

What makes them so expensive?

Making a 1911 design competitive (cost/funtion) with a modern design. It takes a lot to make a Model-T run like a Z06 vett.

 

[schmeky]

Rbernie,

Hit the nail squarely on the head. There is chasm between a RIA and a Les Baer, for example. I have owned both. A RIA is a gun, a good gun. A Les Baer (or Wilson or Ed Brown) is a precision work of art.

It takes time, talent, and precision to acheive a match grade barrel, slide, frame, and bushing fit. Trigger hooks and sears are hand fitted. Expensive milling cutters must be replaced frequently to maintain manufacturing consistency; parts must be checked and re-checked during final assembly.

The highest of quality dictates a higher production cost. For some, it's worth the price of admission, but it's not for everyone.

 

[weisse52]

What makes some 1911s so expensive?

"People are willing to pay" "hype"

Do you really think this?

As many have pointed out a 1911 does have higher labor cost than a "tupperware" gun. Off-shore guns can do this at a lower cost than US builders becuase of labor cost.
This comment sums it up in my opinion:

It takes time, talent, and precision to acheive a match grade barrel, slide, frame, and bushing fit. Trigger hooks and sears are hand fitted. Expensive milling cutters must be replaced frequently to maintain manufacturing consistency; parts must be checked and re-checked during final assembly.

The highest of quality dictates a higher production cost. For some, it's worth the price of admission, but it's not for everyone.

And I do believe in the Aston Martin vs. a Saturn Skye comparsion. People buy the more expensive vehicle because they appreciate the better craftmanship. For some it is all about the status I am sure, but then some people buy guns the same way. So what is the difference.
Higher grade anything cost more than the common grade, that is a simple fact.

 

[earlthegoat2]

hand fitting of parts

 

[Quack]

better question is "what makes HK's so expensive?" LOL

 

[CWL]

People are willing to pay.
hype

I think plumbers charge more per-hour than gunsmiths do.

Seems like the same people who gripe about American jobs being sent overseas, never see the correlation that a American pistolsmith should be paid a living wage.

If you don't want to pay for one, fine. I just do not understand why some people like to get into how I want to spend my money.

 

[woad_yurt]

People are willing to pay. I didn't mean anything personal. If they weren't willing, you wouldn't see so many high dollar guns being made. Someone's buying them.

 

[axeman_g]

Sorry... this is a design that has beem around for 100 yrs, it is the perfect pistol design. Manufacturers just try to sell shooters on this new adaptation or that new feature. The gun works perfect as designed by JMB... it did not need to be altered, adapted or featured added to make work all that much better. The market about the 1911 is about hype... rep ... and $$$.

All those people that go out and spend $2000 on a new Spring4er TRP$ Operator Special (name does not reflect an actual model) and tell me it shoots that much better then a Sistema Colt, RIA or STI Spartan are full of it. Add features all you want.... but acknowledge thats what your doing to add $$$$$.

Fancy 1911s are hype machines. My opinion. may not be yours. And I have owned 1911s, so dont call me a hater.

 

[Throwingdown]

Everything is relative.
There are many factors that dictate cost.

Materails used to build the firearm -
Making the parts from the metals
Where it is assembled/made
Hand finishing vs. Machine
Quality of finish on firearm
Sights - plain 1918 vs. Novak style
Stippling, correct fit of parts
Hand made - a few thousand a year made
Machine - 10-100x as many a year

And there IS a difference between quality/accuracy between a 400.00 and a 2K 1911. I have shot both. Yes, both will shoot, but its in the details that make the difference.