What makes the .357 Mag 125gr unquestionably the best manstopper?

[357 Terms]

I totally agree goon, its just that the 357 will give a marginal advantage,it has to. May not make a difference most of the time; but it might. I realize its mostly apples and oranges.

 

[flightsimmer]

I dunno? LOL
Yeah, it's been photo-shopped but the wound channel wasn't.



10mm, when you care enough to send the very best.

 

[Sean Smith]

There are two different running opinions that make the biggest splash on this site. One is that your service round-chambered pistol is inadequate in any and all situations, and that you'd be likely to do more damage with a slingshot and a marble.

Nobody is making this argument. It's a straw man you made up to try to make your opinion look more reasonable. What people actually do is emphasize that handguns are comparatively weak weapons, which is objectively true short of a .500 Magnum and the like.

The other opinion is that good, possibly numerous hits with a pistol will drop an enemy.

If you replace "will" with "has a good chance to" you're on to something that like 99% of the people here would agree with.

I have an extremely hard time believing that two rounds from a service-caliber handgun applied to a human's chest is not going to do the job. If you hit the heart or the lungs or even both, the lights are going to fade.

Except that we know for a fact that people are shot multiple times in the chest with handguns without being stopped. Hell, there are plenty of recorded incidents of high-power rifles and 12ga shotguns failing to stop.

It's like you're trying to make the worst post possible on this subject. Bravo.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Except that we know for a fact that people are shot multiple times in the chest with handguns without being stopped. Hell, there are plenty of recorded incidents of high-power rifles and 12ga shotguns failing to stop.

And if you need a witness to swear to that, I'm available.

 

[1911Tuner]

Vern. Yep.

Many times, it depends a lot on the physical condition of man who is shot and what his level of determination is in continuing the fight. If he's seriously pumped up on adrenalin...or cocaine...or even a gutful of Pabst Blue ribbon...he may be able to absorb several hits from so-called "manstoppers" and show little or no reaction. Others have been tagged in the wrist or the elbow with .22 Shorts and dropped like a sack of wet laundry, screaming for mommy.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Hell, there are plenty of recorded incidents of high-power rifles and 12ga shotguns failing to stop.

Tens of thousands, in fact. Even the mighty .50 BMG has failed to effect one-shot stops.

Frankly, I don't think anything short of about a 40mm round that will actually dismember a person could be unequivocally counted on to stop them.

 

[Loosedhorse]

And there you have it. We may have the reductio ad absurdum argument, on one hand, that since some aggressor has (in some unspecified place at some unspecified time, anecdotally) taken a .50 BMG hit and kept on fighting (perhaps saying, Jesse Ventura-like, "I ain't got time to bleed!"), that nothing is dependable. Well, nothing is. We knew that already. Even if a round meets or exceeds the FBI's minimum penetration standard...as I believe .50 BMG does.

And we may have the argument that "of course" we know that the Remington .357 Mag 125gr SJHP is the best handgun round ever was, is, and ever gonna be, because 97.3% (or whatever) is clearly different than 95%. Or 91%.

But I suspect that a lot of us are in the middle. We still think that 12 gauge, .50 BMG, or .357 Mag HP has a better probability of stopping a fight NOW than does a .380 FMJ. We understand that placement is king, but we may be more comfortable with a round that has a 90+% "street record" than a round that's 50-60%. I suspect that even those who "dismiss" street records entirely perhaps don't use (for example) RNL loads in their .38 snubs, for whatever reason, even though they penetrate great.

M&S's data present some very interesting puzzles that (I think) are not adequately explained, like the successes of the .32 original Silvertip and the ISP 9mm 115gr +P+ load, despite the "inadequate" penetration of each. Am I supposed to believe the ISP load is actually bad, but the data showing its dismal performance were mischievously excluded?

And then there's the "who cares" factor introduced by new bullets. If (for example) a Corbon DPX will expand AND penetrate...what's left to argue about?

 

[bassdogs]

Sorry about your friend, but I suspect he didn't contribute much to the fight after the first few hits from that M1. Like others have said on here, you're not likely to be carrying an AK for SD unless you're in Alaska or Iraq. Given the choices in handguns I have to agree that any service caliber weapon with appropriate loads will give you the advantage you are looking for in a confrontation with a bad guy. Its a pick your poison kind of argument. I have a 357 colt trooper on the shelf in the family room, a Glock 40 with 15 180 gr JHP, for CC, and a Judge 410/45LC in my wife's car. I suggest that the nay sayers go for their Smart phones to dial 911 and I'll pull the Glock. Will see who has the best chance of survival.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If I ever have to shoot a person in self defense, my actions will be to shoot UNTIL they stop. Whatever handgun and load I am using WILL, unequivocably, STOP the attacker. It may take all the rounds in my gun, and I may have to reload, but the cartridge I am using WILL stop the attacker. You non-believers need a new mindset.

 

[Chief_Cabioch]

Quote:
a well placed 22 rimfire is liable to hit in the shoulder and come out the hip.....doing extensive damage along the way, just sayin.

This is an old shooting myth.
Yes .22 rounds do tend to travel once they hit the body but they do not have enough energy when shot from a handgun to travel through that much tissue.
No way, no how.

Ya sure about that? ....might want to read this article first.......

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/forensics/ballistics/4.html

 

[Patriotme]

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp has some really good info on the topic. Like everything else it's open to debate.

 

[JShirley]

It's not "unquestionably". I question that statement.

There are a lot of factors that go into what's going to be most effective in a given situation. The .357 Magnum 125-gr from a 3 to 5" barrel at reasonable ranges- with the right bullet and velocity- should be plenty effective though. Other calibers/bullet combinations that should also be effective (assuming you have chosen the correct velocity and bullet combination):

9x23mm 124-gr HP
9x23mm 125-gr JSP
.40 S&W 135-gr JHP
.40 S&W 155-gr JHP
.40 S&W 165-gr JHP
10mm 135-gr JHP
10mm 155-gr JHP
10mm 165-gr JHP
10mm 180-gr JHP
.41 Magnum 180-gr JHP
.41 Magnum 200-gr JHP
.41 Magnum 210-gr SJHP
.44 Special 180-gr JHP
.44 Special 200-gr JHP
.44 Special 210-gr SJHP
.45 ACP 185-gr JHP
.45 ACP 200-gr JHP
.45 ACP 230-gr JHP
.45 (Long) Colt 200-gr JHP
.45 (Long) Colt 230-gr JHP

The truth is, when you choose a quality bullet at a reasonable velocity, I would feel perfectly comfortable with any of the combinations I've listed. Hell, in the last few years, I've frequently just had a 9x19mm around as my "get to my rifle" home piece or CCW. (Of course, I've almost as frequently had something like a S&W 629 loaded with .44 Special JHP near the bed or IWB. )

Bullets are designed for different missions. There are same-weight bullets that open up or fragment much more dramatically at the same velocity, and there are some manufacturers who tend to load their ammunition down. The shooter needs to do the research, perhaps even just go test the rounds he's considering carrying. I know from my own testing that bullet performance is much different from a 3" barrel than a 4.5. A very effective bullet from a 3" barrel may be traveling too fast, and not penetrate adequately if fired at a close target from a 6" barrel. Some of this can be resolved with modern "controlled expansion" bullet designs (bullets like Gold Dot come to mind), but some of these, in turn, will open very little or not at all if fired from a short barrel or when not loaded "hot" enough.

Most important of all: maintain situational awareness, know when to run and when to shoot, and be able to hit your target.

John

 

[I'm3rd]

Tens of thousands, in fact. Even the mighty .50 BMG has failed to effect one-shot stops.

Frankly, I don't think anything short of about a 40mm round that will actually dismember a person could be unequivocally counted on to stop them.

You must not have seen the video of a British sniper taking out a Talibaner from over 1 mile away with a .50 BMG sniper rifle. The hit was clearly shown in the video clip, and the Taliban guy was simply blown apart. As seen on the video it looked like a stick of dynamite had exploded in his gizzard. I have also seen several videos taken during the Iraq invasion in which a .50 BMG rifle hits an enemy at much closer range. The videos all show a cloud of red spray behind the victim and a large red splatter on a masonry wall behind him. Not even Superman could take a hit like that and be able to continue firing back, hence an authentic "one shot stop".

I'm not saying that the proven effectiveness of .50 BMG shootings have any relevance to .357 mag shootings. Just saying that there are shoulder fired rounds in existence that are authentic "one shot stoppers" unless they hit a non-critical body part, and even a 16" navy cannon shell wouldn't necessarily stop a determined man if it only clipped off his big toe.

 

[Chief_Cabioch]

JE223March 4, 2007, 06:38 PM
I just finished the .41 Magnum test and here are the results :

Firearm - S&W 57 .41 Magnum revolver with 4" barrel length

Cartridge - Remington 210gr Soft Point SWC (very old looking box - says 'Index 1041' on it)

Block Calibration - 11.8cm @ 605 ft/sec

Shot 1 - Impacted at 1308 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" in the gelatin block and then ~ 4" in a polyester bullet arresting box. Recovered diameter was 0.491". Track is outlined in yellow on the first picture.

Shots 2 & 3 were fired over a chronograph skyscreen, but no reasonable velocity measurements were produced (the screen flashed something like '145 ft/sec' on one of the shots). We had gusting winds of at least 15 mile/hour, so no more attempts were made to utilize the chronograph. For what it is worth, I did not notice any 'soft' or 'hard' shots - the recoil felt consistent.

Shot 2 - Penetrated 16.0" in the gelatin block and then ~ 4" in a polyester bullet arresting box. Recovered diameter was 0.484".

Shot 3 - Penetrated 16.0" in the gelatin block and then ~ 14" in a polyester bullet arresting box. Recovered diameter was 0.471".

Shot 4 - Penetrated 16.0" in the gelatin block and then ~ 14" in a polyester bullet arresting box. Recovered diameter was 0.501".

Shot 5 - Penetrated 16.0" in the gelatin block and then ~ 12.5" in a polyester bullet arresting box. Recovered diameter was 0.499".

 

[JShirley]

...which is why you notice I suggested SJHP, NOT SWC, in that caliber/weight.

 

[Cryogaijin]

This discussion is an absolutely excellent example of just exactly how different people react to similar stimulus. This discussion also demonstrates the problem with talking in absolutes when referring to anything outside a lab.

Something I'd like people reading this thread to think about is this: If you see all the different responses and outcomes to simple "High velocity lead goes into the bad man" Think about all the different responses and outcomes to how people respond to various medicines, to being tazered, to anesthetics, or to pepper spray.

You can put a full magazine through where someone's heart is supposed to be, but if they have situs inversus, all you're doing is winging one lung. Their heart is on the other side.

There is too much variation among the human species for there to be a "perfect" anything. There are, however, "works in most situations."

 

[Prosser]

Delusions and gunwriters. i tend to think a .475.510 caliber HP that expands to 2 bore size,
at 1500-1600 fps would be a bit better then any wimpy 125 grain. 357 WHATEVER.,

 

[Loosedhorse]

This study is being discussed in an adjacent thread. It shows that, in shootings using the .357 (Mag or SIG), only 9% of those receiving hits were not incapacitated. That's as good as the center-fire rifle shootings they looked at...and better than shotguns.

I guess .357 unquestionably is the best manstopper, after all!

 

[Prosser]

I suspect most of the .357 'stops' occur because of a couple factors.
First, it's a common LEO backup gun caliber in a snubby. Most stuff like this occurs at night.

The combination of a light bullet, short barrel .357 doesn't make a super great SD round, but, it makes one heck of a flash-bang grenade, and, it's directional, and doubly effective at night. Combine this with the arms length most of these type of shootings occur at, and you can see why it is effective, not as a defense round, but, as a defense weapon.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The combination of a light bullet, short barrel .357 doesn't make a super great SD round, but, it makes one heck of a flash-bang grenade, and, it's directional, and doubly effective at night. Combine this with the arms length most of these type of shootings occur at, and you can see why it is effective, not as a defense round, but, as a defense weapon.

Great theory. And the proof that you're correct, and it is NOT "a super great SD round" is where, exactly?

 

[PabloJ]

I've been curious about this for a while............so here it goes;

I've come across dozens of sources on the "internet" stating the .357 magnum in 125 JHP as the most effective handgun caliber and load in existence for self defense.

Do the terminal ballistics of this load really stand out that much greater compared to the plethora of other handgun caliber loads? If so why? And if not also why?

I appreciate any help or info yall can give me!

I actually think modern rendition of the stuff they used at KO Corral is superior to anything else. I would take Corbon 200gr .45 Long Colt JHP load at about 1100fps over anything else.

 

[Prosser]

I'm with Pablo.

There are far too many far superior ballistic combinations around to say the .357 is THE manstopper.

First, WHAT .357 round is supposed to be this magical stopper? Which bullet, what velocity?

My only concern with light for caliber bullets is their lack of penetration, and quickly diminishing wound cavity, caused by the lack of bullet weight.

 

[tipoc]

This study is being discussed in an adjacent thread. It shows that, in shootings using the .357 (Mag or SIG), only 9% of those receiving hits were not incapacitated. That's as good as the center-fire rifle shootings they looked at...and better than shotguns.

I guess .357 unquestionably is the best manstopper, after all!

And there ya go! Another excellent study "proving" that the .357 mag 125 gr. jhp bullet from a 4" barrel at 1400 fps is better than a 12 guage. Ellifritz' study ain't really a "study" just a fellas opinion...a wrong one at that.


It was discussed here a little bit ago...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=604721&highlight=ellifritz
tipoc

 

[easyg]

My only concern with light for caliber bullets is their lack of penetration, and quickly diminishing wound cavity, caused by the lack of bullet weight.

The 125g .357 magnum does not lack penetrating ability at all.
In fact, overpenetration can be a real concern when shooting non-hollowpoint .357 magnum rounds.

Even the 115g 9mm FMJ can totally penetrate the typical unarmored human body.

 

[Prosser]

Easyg: That was why I asked my question. The round usually referred to as 'the stopper' is a 125 grain HOLLOWPOINT, at some high velocity, or, as I said, I think mostly out of snubs, 1200 fps or so. it does NOT over-penetrate.
1350 fps, about 15" of penetration.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/357 Magnum Hornady Critical Defense 125gr bare gelatin.pdf

A bit faster, and depending upon the bullet, it might penetrate more or less.

Brassfetcher seemed to be of the opinion that the light projectiles were going too fast, causing seperation, and bullet failure. That might actually be a reason for thier effectiveness, since secondary projectiles caused by bullet fragmentation can cause considerable damage.

That said, their is another alternative:
A cast bullet that mushrooms at speeds in the 1350-1600 fps range, or tumbles a bit, and, maintains it's speed through the target.