What makes the AR-15 superior to the Kel-Tec SU 16?
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Chris Rhines
Member
Given the choice, I'd rather have the direct impingement system. Simpler, more accurate, less prone to failure.
Op-rods are an additional moving part to break, jam, or hang up. They're not any more reliable than a direct impingement system.
- Chris
Op-rods are an additional moving part to break, jam, or hang up. They're not any more reliable than a direct impingement system.
- Chris
rbernie
Contributing Member
That's been debated for at least forty years now, and nobody's managed to win that argument yet.
In the end, the SU16 is a nice rifle that does not have the modularity, ergonomics, or track history of the AR platform.
I am sure there are more reasons why an AR would be somewhat better than an SU-16 I can think of three reasons. Firstly is that most AR-15s have chrome chambers which is an advantage. Secondly, the option of a heavier barrel gives one the option of more accuracy when the barrel heats up. Lastly, is that one of the worries that I have about my SU-16 is its durability over sustained use and abuse. It's one thing to shoot 1000 rounds over 10 range sessions at 100 rounds a session, it's quite another to shoot 1000 rounds over 2 days at a carbine course.
DMK
Member
I definately prefer the AR
It's so modular. I don't mean all the rails and accessories, but even in the original design of the gun. With just a couple basic tools, you can assemble the entire gun from a box of parts in just a few hours, and you can swap 90% of the parts from different guns (well, except for the occasional oddball Colt).
Headspace is set when the barrel is manufactured. Aside from any extensive bolt head wear from shooting, you can swap barrels at will without ever worrying about headspace and it's a complete non-issue if you keep the bolt heads with the barrels they are worn-in to.
I like the direct impingement gas system for accuracy and simplicity. Less moving parts, no gas pistons or oprods banging back and forth.
The bolt design is well thought out with a lot of locking lugs and the gas pushing carrier back and the bolt head forward as it unlocks.
I like the left side bolt catch and the mag release in reach of the right index finger.
The safety is easy to operate.
It looks cool.
The SU-16 is a good, economical, well designed, lightweight, and accurate rifle. I just prefer the AR.
It's so modular. I don't mean all the rails and accessories, but even in the original design of the gun. With just a couple basic tools, you can assemble the entire gun from a box of parts in just a few hours, and you can swap 90% of the parts from different guns (well, except for the occasional oddball Colt).
Headspace is set when the barrel is manufactured. Aside from any extensive bolt head wear from shooting, you can swap barrels at will without ever worrying about headspace and it's a complete non-issue if you keep the bolt heads with the barrels they are worn-in to.
I like the direct impingement gas system for accuracy and simplicity. Less moving parts, no gas pistons or oprods banging back and forth.
The bolt design is well thought out with a lot of locking lugs and the gas pushing carrier back and the bolt head forward as it unlocks.
I like the left side bolt catch and the mag release in reach of the right index finger.
The safety is easy to operate.
It looks cool.
The SU-16 is a good, economical, well designed, lightweight, and accurate rifle. I just prefer the AR.
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one of the reasons im asking is my wife wants a rifle in .223. she doesnt like the kick of my .30 rifles. I have owned 3 ar's over the years and was always dissatisfied with them unlike my FAL's I have NEVER spent a day at the range with an AR and not had to work on it. The Kel-Tecs action apeared to be similar to the AK so I thought it might be a litle more reliable, is direct impingement what you call the AR operating system?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Apparently the Royal Marines disagree since they abandoned their op-rod SA80 rifles for a direct gas M16 rifle.
Some rifles with op rods work more reliably than the AR15 direct gas system, some don't. Really, you are basically trading one set of problems for another set of problems by switching direct gas to gas piston. How well those problems are overcome in either system depends a lot on the engineering that went into the system to begin with.
Jenrick
Member
Might look into an AR-180B then. It uses an op-rod system like the FAL, but it's based largey on the AR-15/M-16 pattern.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
Cortland
Member
gunjunky
Member
Flexibility
As covered by others above the AR type rifle has many positive attributes. But the ability to purchase a rifle and then use the lower as a foundation for “other rifles” is nice also. You can have a variety of upper assemblies to mount on you lower and have a number of purpose specific rifles, or a vast number of caliber change uppers. Need a .223 carbine-got it. How bout a varmint rifle-got it. Pistol cal shoulder fired-done. The latest high speed low drag accessory-for sure. .22 cal plinker for the kids-lot’s of fun.
The possibilities are only limited by your budget.
As covered by others above the AR type rifle has many positive attributes. But the ability to purchase a rifle and then use the lower as a foundation for “other rifles” is nice also. You can have a variety of upper assemblies to mount on you lower and have a number of purpose specific rifles, or a vast number of caliber change uppers. Need a .223 carbine-got it. How bout a varmint rifle-got it. Pistol cal shoulder fired-done. The latest high speed low drag accessory-for sure. .22 cal plinker for the kids-lot’s of fun.
The possibilities are only limited by your budget.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The Kel-Tec is a neat design but I wouldn't want a rifle without a pistol grip, and the Kel-Tec's grip is shaped more like a straight stock. So I'd pick an AR (or AR-180B) on that basis alone.
The Grand Inquisitor
Member
I'll second the vote for the Armalite AR-180B.
You can get one for under $700 and they are GREAT rifles. I've had mine for about 10 months now and I love it. IT will take any ammo you throw at it and is very very accurate and reliable.
You can get one for under $700 and they are GREAT rifles. I've had mine for about 10 months now and I love it. IT will take any ammo you throw at it and is very very accurate and reliable.
DMK
Member
Direct impingement means that the expanding gas out of the barrel is going through a tube back into the receiver and directly pushing against the bolt and carrier. This is opposed to a gas piston system (like the AK or FAL), where the gas goes into a tube, pushes a piston back and the piston strikes the bolt, pushing it back.
The benefits of the piston system is no gas(which also contains unburnt carbon) goes back into the action. This keeps the bolt and the inside of the receiver cleaner. However, it does build up in the gas tube and can jam the piston (had it happen to my FAL). A dent in the gas tube can also hang up the piston, turning your rifle into a single shot(had that happen to an SKS).
The direct impingement is not as sensitive to a dent in the tube, but it's a smaller tube so theoretically it could clog. Failure to clean your bolt and receiver properly could also cause you to have cycling problems.
Knowing how your weapon works, inspecting it regularly and cleaning it properly will prevent problems with both systems. The failure in my FAL was due to me not cleaning the gas tube and piston regularly. That will not happen again. Many guys don't take their AR's bolt apart and clean it regularly, then they wonder why it has cycling problems.
If you just don't like the AR, that's one thing. It's your rifle, you should get what you are comfortable with and there are *many* good choices. However, there is no reason you should have such reliability problems with an AR just due to it's design, especially at a fairly clean rifle range. I have 4 ARs and 3 more uppers, all are mixmasters built from fairly low cost parts. I have gone through around 3k of ammo since I've owned them and *never* had a single malfunction that wasn't due to a known bad magazine or bad round(cheap surplus). I have complete faith that these rifles will go bang and will keep going bang when I want them to. I know I'm not the minority here with that.
I suspect you either had a defective rifle or something was missing in your maintenence routine. What kind of AR was that was causing you so much trouble BTW?
browningguy
Member
When I first thought about replying I hadn't seen the part about your wife wanting a .223. I think that makes my answer a lot shorter.
As far as direct impingment (AR) vs. oprod (KelTec, SKS, FN49, M1Garand), I would agree there are good and bad points for each. For an every day plinker though I like the oprod system, it's just a lot easier to clean. I do have one AR, just finished putting together a .50 Beowulf. I also have 3 of the 4 noted above and the KelTec SU16A is my wifes favorite rifle to shoot. The SKS is just too heavy and unwieldy for her, the FN is a real "mans" rifle, much like an M1, just too big for most women to be happy with.
To be honest most AR's are also too heavy, especially after you add some lights, lazers, free float front tube (with or without quad rails), a forward grip, don't forget some optics, and most important the BUIS in case your optics go out when the Taliban Paratroopers land at the mall. Anyway, with a single loaded mag you are probably up to 8-10 pounds for the high tech AR's, that's just too much for a .223. And in my wifes case the 5-5.5 pounds of the KelTec with just a red dot added is just about right.
Price wise there is no comparison, the KelTec complete costs about the same as a low cost upper with bolt assembly. A complete AR lower will run around $210-230, and that doesn't get you a great trigger. A great trigger will add another $175-200 to the AR, which brings us to the fact that you can't buy a good trigger for the KelTec, you've got to live with the one you get right now. The AR upper mentioned above probably costs most of us $800-$1000, I'm sure there is a bunch of people that only spent $199 because they built the upper from a box of spare parts, but realistically that isn't how most people do it. To build an AR upper right needs some investment in tools, and skill that a lot of us (including me) don't have.
Once you build a lower with a good trigger you can add other uppers, but not really at a lower cost. I paid $599 for my .50 Beowulf upper, that's more than my Mauser custom in 458 Mag. A .22 rimfire upper runs $300-400, I can buy a CZ or target Ruger rifle for less.
So if I understand your need, I'd go for a KelTec SU-16 C or CA. I have the A, and like the factory sights on the C and CA much better than mine. It's light, mine has been very reliable, and it uses AR mags, what's not to like.
As far as direct impingment (AR) vs. oprod (KelTec, SKS, FN49, M1Garand), I would agree there are good and bad points for each. For an every day plinker though I like the oprod system, it's just a lot easier to clean. I do have one AR, just finished putting together a .50 Beowulf. I also have 3 of the 4 noted above and the KelTec SU16A is my wifes favorite rifle to shoot. The SKS is just too heavy and unwieldy for her, the FN is a real "mans" rifle, much like an M1, just too big for most women to be happy with.
To be honest most AR's are also too heavy, especially after you add some lights, lazers, free float front tube (with or without quad rails), a forward grip, don't forget some optics, and most important the BUIS in case your optics go out when the Taliban Paratroopers land at the mall. Anyway, with a single loaded mag you are probably up to 8-10 pounds for the high tech AR's, that's just too much for a .223. And in my wifes case the 5-5.5 pounds of the KelTec with just a red dot added is just about right.
Price wise there is no comparison, the KelTec complete costs about the same as a low cost upper with bolt assembly. A complete AR lower will run around $210-230, and that doesn't get you a great trigger. A great trigger will add another $175-200 to the AR, which brings us to the fact that you can't buy a good trigger for the KelTec, you've got to live with the one you get right now. The AR upper mentioned above probably costs most of us $800-$1000, I'm sure there is a bunch of people that only spent $199 because they built the upper from a box of spare parts, but realistically that isn't how most people do it. To build an AR upper right needs some investment in tools, and skill that a lot of us (including me) don't have.
Once you build a lower with a good trigger you can add other uppers, but not really at a lower cost. I paid $599 for my .50 Beowulf upper, that's more than my Mauser custom in 458 Mag. A .22 rimfire upper runs $300-400, I can buy a CZ or target Ruger rifle for less.
So if I understand your need, I'd go for a KelTec SU-16 C or CA. I have the A, and like the factory sights on the C and CA much better than mine. It's light, mine has been very reliable, and it uses AR mags, what's not to like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_impingement
Apparently, ARs are lube dependent and ammo finicky
http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=66
Magazines can also be problematic
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15faq.msnw
But, if you really love the rifle, can live with the miniscule caliber, have good supply lines for specific ammo, and backup from other members of your unit while you're down for disassembly and cleaning, then the AR15 is for you.
Shear_stress
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Ragging on the caliber isn't going to help him decide which .223 rifle to get.
That said, there are intrinsic advantages and disadvantages of direct impingement and piston action. Modern iterations of the AR design are reliable enough so that I wouldn't make the action design an important consideration in deciding between rifles, though. Even if it were, you're probably not going to be dipping the rifle in sand any time soon.
If money wasn't an object, I would choose a quallity AR from one of the major players for all the reason people have given. I built mine from Rock River Arms parts and it has been very accurate and perfectly reliable. It is so pleasant to shoot I called it a "sheep in wolf's clothing". Maintanence has been limited to wiping off the bolt carrier with a paper towel once every couple hundred rounds. I am not sure ifthe thousand dollar uppers and two-hundred dollar triggers mentioned above really represent the going rate for most ARs. You can buy a brand new complete Bushmaster for about seven and a half bills plus shipping and dealer cost (see below). A RRA drop-in two-stage trigger like mine will set you back about $95. If you want to festoon your rifle with expensive accessories, it is a free country.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html
I have handled the Kel-Tec and it seems like a neat rifle at a good price. Time will tell if it has the accuracy and ultimate durability of the AR, but it looks like it is off to a good start.
That said, there are intrinsic advantages and disadvantages of direct impingement and piston action. Modern iterations of the AR design are reliable enough so that I wouldn't make the action design an important consideration in deciding between rifles, though. Even if it were, you're probably not going to be dipping the rifle in sand any time soon.
If money wasn't an object, I would choose a quallity AR from one of the major players for all the reason people have given. I built mine from Rock River Arms parts and it has been very accurate and perfectly reliable. It is so pleasant to shoot I called it a "sheep in wolf's clothing". Maintanence has been limited to wiping off the bolt carrier with a paper towel once every couple hundred rounds. I am not sure ifthe thousand dollar uppers and two-hundred dollar triggers mentioned above really represent the going rate for most ARs. You can buy a brand new complete Bushmaster for about seven and a half bills plus shipping and dealer cost (see below). A RRA drop-in two-stage trigger like mine will set you back about $95. If you want to festoon your rifle with expensive accessories, it is a free country.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html
I have handled the Kel-Tec and it seems like a neat rifle at a good price. Time will tell if it has the accuracy and ultimate durability of the AR, but it looks like it is off to a good start.
Just to go ahead and be perfectly honest i have never been particularly fond of the Ar or the .223 round, if I were going into harms way there is no way I would be toting a .22 , the ar in question that I have had so much truoble with was my uncles, I inherited it. I still have it, its a colt he bought back in the early 70's. its a peice of #$%. it rattles when you shake it. about 15 years ago I also briefly had a really nice AR with a bull barrell and scope I dont remember who made it but it only liked premium ammo, surplus ammo always hung up in it, so i traded it for an Fal. my wife kind of likes my old AR but I think its so worn out at this point i wouldnt trust it. rounds boattail and it wont group any more. I havent actually held or fired a KelTec yet but I'm intrigued, if its not a flimsy piece of Cr@p id like to have a couple. I think they would make great practice rifles for my wife and kids, as far as the debate on rounds goes iv seen up close and personal what a .223 and a .30-06 can do to a human body, If the .223 still has the velocity it makes some pretty ugly wounds, the .30 round is superior for stopping a man however. ( i was a paramedic for about 10 years) Thanks for all the in put every body!
pauli
Member
near as i can tell, the problem with the su16 is that it's not an ar... which is to say, there's nothing wrong with it if you're not already married to the ar platform
in your case, though, it sounds like you should first get the rifle you do have fixed up properly. then, let your wife handle it and the su16, and decide whether or not to buy one from there.
in your case, though, it sounds like you should first get the rifle you do have fixed up properly. then, let your wife handle it and the su16, and decide whether or not to buy one from there.
Shear_stress
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I wonder if that bull barrel model may have been chambered for 223 Remington and not 5.56 nato.
Anyway, I agree with pauli that you might as well fix up that old Colt Sporter. Would cost you a lot less than a new rifle.
As for the caliber itself, if you just want a rifle for your wife to enjoy, the 223/5.56 is great choice. There's no law that says that every long gun you have has to be able to drop charging North Korean soldiers at 1000 yards.
Anyway, I agree with pauli that you might as well fix up that old Colt Sporter. Would cost you a lot less than a new rifle.
As for the caliber itself, if you just want a rifle for your wife to enjoy, the 223/5.56 is great choice. There's no law that says that every long gun you have has to be able to drop charging North Korean soldiers at 1000 yards.
DMK
Member
R.H. Lee, aside from the Wikopedia text you direct quoted, your links don't substantiate your claims.
I don't see anything on the Maryland AR site FAQ that even hints at ARs being finicky about magazines and I could point a link to the troubleshooting forum of www.AK47.net and state that all the posts there indicate that AKs are unreliable too.
I don't see anything on the Maryland AR site FAQ that even hints at ARs being finicky about magazines and I could point a link to the troubleshooting forum of www.AK47.net and state that all the posts there indicate that AKs are unreliable too.
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