What pistol cartridge would you like to see tested against auto glass and gelatin?
- Thread starter Brass Fetcher
- Start date
- Status
Vitamin G
Member
I'd really like to see various loadings of 10mm. 135, 165, and 180
Instead of generic calibers or standard bullet configurations, I'd like to see some of the EXOTIC brands tested for their advertising claims. RBCD for example has a huge following in Special Operations. Blackwater orders their ammo by the pallet load. Then there is MagSafe, Glaser, Powerball, Extreme, and I'm sure lots more.
Any corbon DPX, or rather the Barnes XPB bullets. Read something of them reliably expanding through a layer of leather AND 4 layers of denim, then into gel recently. Writeup was not elaborate enough to state those that did not make the list, however, they stated these always got full expansion in all calibers. May have been a surreptitious Corbon or Barnes ad too, not sure.
Box o Truth has some good windshield info, but not into gelatin. Expect higher than POA for into windshield, lower than POA for out of windshield due to the angle. Here's a link.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
BTW - really like your website JE, I've spent a lot of time there surfing around.
Box o Truth has some good windshield info, but not into gelatin. Expect higher than POA for into windshield, lower than POA for out of windshield due to the angle. Here's a link.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
BTW - really like your website JE, I've spent a lot of time there surfing around.
Where'd you hear that? You'll find alot of info about rbcd ammo at this forum, http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000630
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
The Cor-Bon DPX looks like a good candidate for an ammo type to include in the test.
Mega-Death-Shock bullets will not be tested.
Mega-Death-Shock bullets will not be tested.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Most definately. I would like to make the angles part of the discussion of which ammo brands/types to test... being that the barrier is an actual windshield, from an actual car, there should be many different angle options to choose from.
rantingredneck
Member
I'd like to see a good .45 v .40 v 9 test on this. But since I no longer own any .40's or 9's I voted .45 since that would be most useful for my purposes.
I carry 200 or 230 gr. TAP +P's
I carry 200 or 230 gr. TAP +P's
Ninja42
Member
I would love to see you test 9x18 Makarov, FMJ and JHP.
I love your work.
I love your work.
I voted 9mm because I think it is underrated with the new bullet technologies.
I would also add that the three that make the most to compare would probably be 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. They are probably the most commonly carried calibers and would benefit more people on this site. I also saw that a lot of people were suggest ammo brands and bullet weights, I would also suggest that if possible choose standard/popular choices, Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Hydroshock in 115, 165 and 230. There are a lot of comparisons that could be done caliber vs. caliber, bullet weight vs. bullet weight, HP vs. FMJ ect. but I would hope that it would be testing that would be practical to benefit as many people as possible, which it sounds like why you started the poll and what you have indicated your intentions are.
Thanks in advance and regardless of caliber I am excited to see the results.
Good Luck and Be Safe!
I would also add that the three that make the most to compare would probably be 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. They are probably the most commonly carried calibers and would benefit more people on this site. I also saw that a lot of people were suggest ammo brands and bullet weights, I would also suggest that if possible choose standard/popular choices, Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Hydroshock in 115, 165 and 230. There are a lot of comparisons that could be done caliber vs. caliber, bullet weight vs. bullet weight, HP vs. FMJ ect. but I would hope that it would be testing that would be practical to benefit as many people as possible, which it sounds like why you started the poll and what you have indicated your intentions are.
Thanks in advance and regardless of caliber I am excited to see the results.
Good Luck and Be Safe!
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
@bb21 - Good points. I am thinking that there are two ways to look at maximizing the practicality of the windshield test to benefit the largest number of people...
One way would be, like you said, to test maybe a 124gr 9x19mm, a 165gr .40S&W and a 230gr .45ACP, using the same brand(s) of ammo for the test. That would be good, but the results would be strongly brand/design dependant. Those results would be of the greater practical value - IE, if your brand/caliber did well, stick with it or change brands to something that did do well, etc.
The other way, would be of more interest in a general sense - test the same diameter of bullet, with the same nose style and material, at different weights and impact velocities. Those results would be more general, but could be used to get an idea of what to expect with a different caliber than that which was tested...
In all cases, the greater the number of shots/data points, the more successful the test. But then again, I am constrained by the number of blocks that I can produce (because gelatin is expensive).
One way would be, like you said, to test maybe a 124gr 9x19mm, a 165gr .40S&W and a 230gr .45ACP, using the same brand(s) of ammo for the test. That would be good, but the results would be strongly brand/design dependant. Those results would be of the greater practical value - IE, if your brand/caliber did well, stick with it or change brands to something that did do well, etc.
The other way, would be of more interest in a general sense - test the same diameter of bullet, with the same nose style and material, at different weights and impact velocities. Those results would be more general, but could be used to get an idea of what to expect with a different caliber than that which was tested...
In all cases, the greater the number of shots/data points, the more successful the test. But then again, I am constrained by the number of blocks that I can produce (because gelatin is expensive).
birdbustr
Member
.40 cal in the 135gr Nosler Competion Handgun bullets. I load mine to 1300fps with 8gr of Power Pistol. Superb accuracy compared to other loads in my H&K compact. I just wonder how much penetration I am losing. I think these would be comparable with the Glaser DPX 135gr.
Don't mix tests. There are three possible tests:
1) Windshield type and angle remains constant. Firearm calibre remains constant. Performance of different weights and styles of projectiles are tested.
2) Windshield type and angle remains constant. Various service calibres are tested, but the style of the round remains constant (such as all FMJ, all Gold Dot etc).
3) Firearm calibre remains constant. Ammunition remains constant. Windshield angle is varied between shots.
If you mix the tests up, the results will lack meaning.
1) Windshield type and angle remains constant. Firearm calibre remains constant. Performance of different weights and styles of projectiles are tested.
2) Windshield type and angle remains constant. Various service calibres are tested, but the style of the round remains constant (such as all FMJ, all Gold Dot etc).
3) Firearm calibre remains constant. Ammunition remains constant. Windshield angle is varied between shots.
If you mix the tests up, the results will lack meaning.
68'chevelle
Member
I plan on buy a Glock 21 in .45auto or Glock 23.40 S&WI would like to see both calibers used.
gravis86
Member
Add another vote for 357 SIG. It's harder to find good tests on this caliber. The more we can get, the better. Maybe the Corbon 125gr load or the Winchester Ranger T-Series.
just a thought, how many shots would each windshield be good for before it lost enough integrity?
and on that thought, how are you planning on replicating the tension that a windshield is under when it is actually mounted in a car? i would expect that a windshield mounted in a frame would have different resistance properties than one that was leaning against a board and not in a frame...
and on that thought, how are you planning on replicating the tension that a windshield is under when it is actually mounted in a car? i would expect that a windshield mounted in a frame would have different resistance properties than one that was leaning against a board and not in a frame...
sm
member
JE223,
My suggestion is use what the normal everyday person will buy for Carry Loads.
Being honest, quite a few folks , do not spend the money for more Premium Loads.
Single mom's with a kid(s), maybe trying to attend college.
Families with kids, and again perhaps one or both taking a night class.
Elderly, and physically limited folks.
Nobody I hang with owns a .40 cal for instance, they tried, but the guns did not fit them and they hated the recoil.
Nobody I am close to cares one iota about new and fangled, instead common sense, and practical.
Lady without a weak side hand, uses a Tomcat, others use J and K frames, or Detective Specials.
Others use 1911s, BHPs, Kel-Tec P-11, NAA 32ACP and 380.
Honest, with a kid sick, car repairs, insurance due, a person is most apt to pick up 115 gr WWB JHP for carry loads for a 9mm for instance.
Arthritis so bad the best they can shoot is .38spl Wadcutters...
My take is to report what results one gets from the "practical" side of things.
Lots of folks read THR and many are not members.
Now I have tested slews of ammunition shooting into and out of cars,and had folks do this too.
One way mirrors, special security glass and not long ago patio glass.
Question was raised in regard to home invasions, and what happens with various loads if one had to shoot through patio glass as perp had a firearm, fired, and one had to defend.
What happens to glass, single and doubled, and POA/POI changes (it does), and what , if any if a perp should choose to shoot into patio...
The reality is, some will be in a recliner in a room, with patio doors, curtains and all.
Already happened around here...
So has car-jackings, and what happens with loadings to windshield, back glass and passenger glass.
It will surprise some folks what a loading will do against glass...POA/POI especially...
My suggestion is use what the normal everyday person will buy for Carry Loads.
Being honest, quite a few folks , do not spend the money for more Premium Loads.
Single mom's with a kid(s), maybe trying to attend college.
Families with kids, and again perhaps one or both taking a night class.
Elderly, and physically limited folks.
Nobody I hang with owns a .40 cal for instance, they tried, but the guns did not fit them and they hated the recoil.
Nobody I am close to cares one iota about new and fangled, instead common sense, and practical.
Lady without a weak side hand, uses a Tomcat, others use J and K frames, or Detective Specials.
Others use 1911s, BHPs, Kel-Tec P-11, NAA 32ACP and 380.
Honest, with a kid sick, car repairs, insurance due, a person is most apt to pick up 115 gr WWB JHP for carry loads for a 9mm for instance.
Arthritis so bad the best they can shoot is .38spl Wadcutters...
My take is to report what results one gets from the "practical" side of things.
Lots of folks read THR and many are not members.
Now I have tested slews of ammunition shooting into and out of cars,and had folks do this too.
One way mirrors, special security glass and not long ago patio glass.
Question was raised in regard to home invasions, and what happens with various loads if one had to shoot through patio glass as perp had a firearm, fired, and one had to defend.
What happens to glass, single and doubled, and POA/POI changes (it does), and what , if any if a perp should choose to shoot into patio...
The reality is, some will be in a recliner in a room, with patio doors, curtains and all.
Already happened around here...
So has car-jackings, and what happens with loadings to windshield, back glass and passenger glass.
It will surprise some folks what a loading will do against glass...POA/POI especially...
Acheron
Member
I would definitely like to see a comparison between JHP and FMJ in either 9x19 Para or .45 ACP.
Try using some cheap FMJ/JHP and compare it to premium JHP loads.
Try using some cheap FMJ/JHP and compare it to premium JHP loads.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
Odd Job said:
I like this approach best. Perhaps a combination of Wal-Mart practice ammo, the WWB JHP and then something from the premium JHP brands, in various bullet weights.
As far as the windshield being mounted in a rigid frame... that is a good thought. But I would think that the internal stress concentrations on the glass from a car frame would vary with the particulars of the mounting/securing system and would vary even more with the shape and size of the windshield. For now, I would like to keep things as general as possible. Specialization can come later, once we have an idea as to how a round could be expected to perform.
I like this approach best. Perhaps a combination of Wal-Mart practice ammo, the WWB JHP and then something from the premium JHP brands, in various bullet weights.
As far as the windshield being mounted in a rigid frame... that is a good thought. But I would think that the internal stress concentrations on the glass from a car frame would vary with the particulars of the mounting/securing system and would vary even more with the shape and size of the windshield. For now, I would like to keep things as general as possible. Specialization can come later, once we have an idea as to how a round could be expected to perform.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
It looks like the 9x19mm and .45ACP are in a dead heat. The poll ends at 10PM... we need a tie breaker!
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
9x19mm it is!
Good. That's the round of choice for most of the shootings in and around vehicles in South Africa. I will enjoy this, thanks JE223.
For those of you not familiar with hijacking statistics, South Africa has the highest rate of carjackings in any peacetime country. Many of the victims are shot through the glass without even being asked to get out. Granted most of these shootings happen through the driver's side window, but a fair amount have happened through the windshield.
One of our ENT surgeons was shot through the windshield of his BMW 325 as he was driving out of the hospital parking lot. He took three shots COM through the windshield and could not be resuscitated.
The effects of being shot through a side window can often be seen radiologically and also clinically even if the victim cannot speak about the circumstances of the incident. Some of the effects (that I have personally seen) are:
1) Stippling and tiny incisions from the glass fragments
2) A large, ragged entrance wound
3) A projectile that has an asymmetrical expansion or an obvious flattening deformation as seen on X-ray or at surgical retrieval.
One such case that I reported on at a forensic radiography conference here in London, involved a gunshot victim from my research sample in Johannesburg 2002.
The victim was a male who was seated in a stationary vehicle, in the driver's seat, while having a conversation with his girlfriend who was in the passenger seat. A gunman appeared at the passenger window (which was rolled up) and and a single shot was fired. The shot perforated the auto glass on a downward trajectory, missed the girlfriend's neck and chest but hit the man on the anterior surface of the left thigh. The bullet was already deformed when it hit, so it made a large ragged entrance wound. The round continued through the left thigh, exited medially, reentered the man's scrotum, perforated the scrotum (cutting each testicle in half), exited the scrotum and reentered the right thigh medially where it continued on a downward trajectory, missing the femur. And there it lodged (and it is probably still there today).
The thing that impressed me about that case was that the angle of the glass relative to the long axis of the bullet could be seen radiologically, by examining the contour of the bullet. It was a neatly-defined straight line deformation. These appearances are also seen on the bearing surface of ricocheted bullets if you have the angle of the X-ray beam just right.
I can't conclusively say what round it was, but my suggestion based on the appearance of the round radiologically is that it was a JHP. Certainly the round was jacketed (I could see the jacket on the X-ray). Whatever it was, it had great penetration because it made a fairly long diagonal trajectory through both thighs after piercing the auto glass first.
The gunman fled without taking the vehicle and the man's testicles were salvaged (I was amazed that this was the case because when I photographed him and X-rayed him, I could see the testes protruding from the scrotum).
I won't post the wounds or the radiographs here, but I will post my trajectory reconstruction. Note the vehicle is right hand drive and the shot came from the left. The car was a green Golf (not that exact model but close enough):
For those of you not familiar with hijacking statistics, South Africa has the highest rate of carjackings in any peacetime country. Many of the victims are shot through the glass without even being asked to get out. Granted most of these shootings happen through the driver's side window, but a fair amount have happened through the windshield.
One of our ENT surgeons was shot through the windshield of his BMW 325 as he was driving out of the hospital parking lot. He took three shots COM through the windshield and could not be resuscitated.
The effects of being shot through a side window can often be seen radiologically and also clinically even if the victim cannot speak about the circumstances of the incident. Some of the effects (that I have personally seen) are:
1) Stippling and tiny incisions from the glass fragments
2) A large, ragged entrance wound
3) A projectile that has an asymmetrical expansion or an obvious flattening deformation as seen on X-ray or at surgical retrieval.
One such case that I reported on at a forensic radiography conference here in London, involved a gunshot victim from my research sample in Johannesburg 2002.
The victim was a male who was seated in a stationary vehicle, in the driver's seat, while having a conversation with his girlfriend who was in the passenger seat. A gunman appeared at the passenger window (which was rolled up) and and a single shot was fired. The shot perforated the auto glass on a downward trajectory, missed the girlfriend's neck and chest but hit the man on the anterior surface of the left thigh. The bullet was already deformed when it hit, so it made a large ragged entrance wound. The round continued through the left thigh, exited medially, reentered the man's scrotum, perforated the scrotum (cutting each testicle in half), exited the scrotum and reentered the right thigh medially where it continued on a downward trajectory, missing the femur. And there it lodged (and it is probably still there today).
The thing that impressed me about that case was that the angle of the glass relative to the long axis of the bullet could be seen radiologically, by examining the contour of the bullet. It was a neatly-defined straight line deformation. These appearances are also seen on the bearing surface of ricocheted bullets if you have the angle of the X-ray beam just right.
I can't conclusively say what round it was, but my suggestion based on the appearance of the round radiologically is that it was a JHP. Certainly the round was jacketed (I could see the jacket on the X-ray). Whatever it was, it had great penetration because it made a fairly long diagonal trajectory through both thighs after piercing the auto glass first.
The gunman fled without taking the vehicle and the man's testicles were salvaged (I was amazed that this was the case because when I photographed him and X-rayed him, I could see the testes protruding from the scrotum).
I won't post the wounds or the radiographs here, but I will post my trajectory reconstruction. Note the vehicle is right hand drive and the shot came from the left. The car was a green Golf (not that exact model but close enough):
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
@Odd Job - Thank you for sharing your story. You just have to wonder what those crooks are thinking, don't you? From the trajectory of the shot, it appears that the shooter was pretty close to seriously injuring the passenger and not really intent on hitting the driver. Vicious.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll