What range to practice Bear defense with slugs?

[elano]

I'm new to enjoying slug shooting with the shotgun. I have to say it's much funner that I thought and the limb saver and williams slugger sights make it pretty nice for a chopped maverick 88. The whole idea behind my question, we are planning a trip to go camping in Alaska and the northwest. I know the normal stuff regarding making noise, bear spray, etc. I want a shotgun to tag along with me JUST IN CASE.

What range would a person be at typically to feel the need to shoot a bear with a shotgun slug in a defense situation. Let's say walk up on a wounded bear that is irritable/really hungry/charging. What range should I be practicing shooting at 25 yards? 50? 75? I am using basketball size targets.

 

[rcmodel]

I think if you shoot a bear in Alaska at any distance, and you don't have a bear license, or claw marks on you.
You will be in a heap of trouble.

A bear at 25 yards will be in your face if it wants to be, before you can react.

A bear further away then that isn't a threat yet.

So you probably won't get a shot off at the close one, and would get arrested for shooting the second one out of season.

For the most part, I believe if you don't eat sardine sandwichs in your tent at night, or kidnap one of their cute little cubs?

You probably would never have a good reason to shoot one.

At any rate, if you can hit a paper plate rapid-fire consistently at 25 yards with slugs, that's good enough.

rc

 

[elano]

Thanks RC. I hope I never get charged or attacked by a bear obviously. If it came down to feeling life threatened vs arrested, I would rather have the option at least. I saw some pictures of people killed in bear attacks and it freaked me out a bit. The thought of my wife getting chewed up is terrifying to me. Still though she has been dreaming to see Alaska so we are planning to when it warms up this year. We will use bear spray first, I've done a bit of reading on how to be safe and how to use it. 25 yards on a paper plate is pretty doable for me. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[rcmodel]

Where are you?
You didn't fill in your location on your user info so I can't tell??

Be aware if you are in the lower 48, you can't easily transport a firearm through Canada to get to Alaska.

rc

 

[elano]

GA. I have done the research on that as well. Hand guns are a no go, there are ways to safely leave those at the boarder. Shotguns can be brought along but you have to claim them in advance to be able to transport them through Canada. From what I hear it's not a big deal, just paperwork that must be completed in advance. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Sav .250]

Your scenario and real life possibilities are off the wall......... Have you ever been charged by one of the big bears?
FEAR is more the problem than practicing for the unknown.

 

[Sam1911]

This isn't a terribly outrageous request. Pretty practical advice can be given.

Shotguns with good slugs are very well regarded for this duty in AK, and I think your choice of weapon is a good one.

As for practice, the only really threat scenario to worry about is the worst one: the charge.

Practicing for that in a most realistic way will be difficult, especially if you don't have access to moving charger targets (which are really cool, by the way), but about the best you can do is to start with a 25 yd. target and work on your speed.

Set a timer and see how fast you can get unslung and a shot on target. That's the scary one because it would be a situation where you had no warning at all.

But it seems that a lot of bear encounters involve some degree of threat display and warning before a charge, so it isn't unrealistic to practice from the ready position as well.

A bear who decides to charge can cross 25 yards in a hair over 2 seconds. Set a par time on your timer and practice getting two slugs on target before the par time beep. Can you get 3? Remember, this isn't hunting where a well placed shot will kill the animal fairly soon, this is stopping an attack. Got to do as much damage as possible to break the stuff that's keeping Mr./Ms. bruin willing and mobile, before it gets to you.

 

[Frostbite]

You should start the paperwork now. Anything firearms related is a slow process here when talking about administrative requirements. Also, read transportation rules and storage safety requirements on the RCMP's website, you might learn something there.

And I strongly recommend to conform. If camping in Canada is part of the trip, be aware guns are not really considered a self defence or a camping gear item in this country by most: discretion is strongly advised. Using a firearm for bear defence is legal though, but keeping it readily accessible is legal only in a "remote" location.

I would check with the campground authorities what are their thoughts on the subject, by phone, so they do not feel like they are writing down official policy, before I get there, to know how to properly behave once there with regards to firearms and not put the spotlight on myself by asking the sixteen years old gun afraid attendant at the gate.

Just to give you an idea of how different things are up here if you are not familiar with Canadian law, owning a firearm in our country is considered a privilege in the eye of the law (Supreme Court ruling), it is not a right.

As for distance at which you should practice slugging bears, I would suggest 0 to 40 yards.

Based on anecdotal personal experience with a bear, I would tend to confirm what rc said: either you do not have time or you do not need to shoot. Both happened to me at the same time, with a loaded rifle in my hands. I think the bear was as scared as I was surprised. No shot was fired, no one was hurt.

 

[Virginian]

To transport shotguns and/or rifles into Canada is a 5 minute paperwork deal for up to 3 at the border. They do want their $25 for it though. Handguns, forget it. I do not know if they have concocted a list of "assault weapons", but a phone call will answer that.
If you do all the right things the odds you will need to use your gun for defense are miniscule. BUT, if you run into the wrong bear you better have your gun at the ready, and be ready.

 

[cowpoke]

when you say assault weapons do you mean( assault weapons) or semi auto.

 

[Sam1911]

Since there is no universal definition of "assault weapon" (as opposed to "assault rifle" which is an actual thing) and most of the firearms codified in various laws as "assault weapons" are indeed semi-automatic, that's not a very helpful question.

For what it is worth, here's a helpful page on how Canadian firearms laws work: http://www.gunownersresource.com/faq/what-guns-are-banned-in-canada/

However, that's really all of the topic of traveling through Canada, to Alaska, with a pump shotgun.

 

[Sunray]

"...A bear at 25 yards will be in your face if it wants to be..." Well your face will be in Yogi. Yogi can cover 100 yards, never mind 25, in under 6 seconds. You will never be fast enough to recognise the threat, get your shotgun off your shoulder, aim and fire. But if it makes you feel better, practice at 100 yards on a 9" pie plate. And you'll have to try a box of as many brands of ammo as you can to find the one(s) your shotgun shoots best.
"...5 minute paperwork..." Ain't no Canadian civil servant ever going to do anything that fast, but it's not as big a deal as assumed. Required to be in a case. Go here and bring that 40% exchange rate money. snicker. http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/visit-visite-eng.htm

 

[elano]

Thank you all for the helpful replies!!!!!

I have seen videos of charges and many are like yall say. I know from research many people keep rifles when in bear country. My main concern was how far I should be practicing shooting. Sav 250 I think your response is least helpful of all. Seems many on this board share a condenscending attitude these days. Thanks sam1911 for being the voice of reason. Again thank you all for the helpful replies especially regarding going through Canada.

 

[lemaymiami]

My brother has lived up in Alaska (a full bore subsistence lifestyle for around 40 years now) and he tells me that bears in the interior (he's in the Matsu area) have learned to associate a rifle shot with a feeding opportunity. Mostly, he's faced bluff charges -never the real thing -but says that can be scary enough since in alder thickets you can't see one - but you'll hear him coming...

The only advice he gave me for my one visit was to stand your ground if you weren't able to retreat into your car. He advised to try to break down any bear instead of going for a single killing shot. He said you wanted your first shot to hit a shoulder then move to center aim. Don't think I'd ever want to be standing in that position if I could help it....

He further advised never to hunt alone in the areas he's familiar with. They routinely have someone standing watch while they're field dressing caribou or moose... Funny thing.... he gets grizzly tracks around his house (30 miles north of Palmer on the Glenn Highway with river frontage) occasionally and never worries about them since they're roamers and have to cover a lot of territory. If he finds black bear tracks he makes plans to deal with the animal since it won't be leaving and poses a threat to dogs or kids.... The black bears I looked at through his spotting scope across the Matanuska river were big ones - easily three feet wide at the butt end - big black bears!

 

[Virginian]

Sunray,
When I crossed the border at Pembina, ND, North of Fargo it was like a different world than at Fort Erie or Niagara Falls. Everybody was super nice, asked where I was going hunting and all kinds of stuff. I was in and out of there in no time. Probably because they don't have to deal with as many *********s crossing as they do in Ontario. When I lived in Canada I was there on a Canadian Economic development visa, not as a result of the North American Free Trade Agreement, and I always got very nice treatment, but I saw many who didn't.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Personally I would try 100 yards and in (75, 50, 25) to get a feel at my comfort level at these distances. Like others say, being able to practice on moving targets would be great if you have that ability. Ropes, pulleys, a wheel base, and a willing teenage to run with the rope in a safe direction come to mind.

 

[jmr40]

Truthfully, you'll be better off if you stock up on bear spray, but if you want to carry a firearm too here is a good article with good advice. This is a study done by the Alaska dept. of wildlife and their recommendations.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

Short version:

Even though it has a reputation, 12 ga slugs performed poorly in their tests. It was ranked 26th out of 33 different cartridges tested with recoil equal to 338 WM.

Their suggestion is 375 mag or larger if you can handle recoil.

A 30-06 loaded with 200-220 gr bullets was actually beat everything except 458 WM in penetration, but with 1/2 the recoil of 12 ga. slugs.

Their, and my top pick for most people is a short barreled 30-06 rifle loaded with 220 gr RN bullets.

My pick is a bolt rifle and learn to shoot fast. I can get off 3 shots in under 2 seconds. I might fire a warning shot at around 50 yards if I felt a charge was imminent. I'd not fire for effect until about 25 yards. I figure I'm good for 2 shots. If that doesn't work, then it's just my day to die.

 

[lemaymiami]

Always a practical guy... my brother carries a 375 H&H in the field as his standard rifle (he has three of them). He's taken caribou out to 500 meters, hunts moose at close quarters in standing timber (on the lower sides of mountains) where your shots are pretty close, and that's what he'll be using if bear are a problem (they routinely take small "berry bears" for the table each year -but never grizzlies). He's the hunter (I'm the fisherman) so I listened closely to his advice. I would agree that a 12ga. will work -but a quick handling rifle is probably a lot better if a bear intends to shred you....

 

[PabloJ]

I would think you would need double rifle pushing around 500grains at >2000fps just like for tusker in Africa. They need to close in aggressive manner to 10 paces of less to be considered a threat and allowed to be shot.

 

[drcook]

Spend some quality time with Google.

There are other platforms and loadings that can just as easy to carry, are fast to use and carry enough punch. As the previous posting(s) have mentioned, a rifle might be the better option. A .450 Marlin, a heavy loaded 45-70, etc in a fast handling lever rifle make a good defensive weapon.

 

[200Apples]

.
Three years ago when I became aware, out of nowhere and rather suddenly, of my desire to own a .416 Ruger Alaskan rifle my research led me to, among other things, the topic of polar bear defense on the Norwegian island of Svalbard.

At that time, an official statement on the Governor of Svalbard's letterhead said, in so many words, to use if one's party was under the threat of a charging polar bear "inside 150 meters a rifle of .30-06 or greater caliber.".. but once the bear might advance closer to cross the 50 meter mark, one was to have ready "a minimum-calibre 12 ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke shotgun slugs". Again, I paraphrase.

Just the other day I looked into the matter and found the official stance had changed to suggest "a minimum of .308 Winchester" (at least 180 gr) and that the shotgun advice had been toned down. Interesingly, the mention of a handgun minimum caliber of .44 (240 gr minimum)...

Excerpts from a Guidelines for polar bear protection PDF found on Google

Rifles used for protection against polar bears shall have a minimum calibre of .308W or 30-06 (7.62 mm). Rifle bullets shall be expanding, with a minimum bullet weight of 11.5 g [180 gr]. The required impact energy shall be 2,700 J, measured at a distance of 100 m.

For reasons of precision, range, functionality in cold conditions and stopping power, the Governor of Svalbard recommends the use of rifles as the primary means of protection against polar bears, rather than other types of firearms.

---

Shotguns used for protection against polar bears shall have a minimum calibre of 12, and should have a magazine permitting a minimum of four shots (automatic or pump-action shotgun). The use of slugs (shotgun ammunition comprised of one projectile) is recommended for protection against polar bears.

However, the Governor of Svalbard warns that most magazine-fed shotguns tend to have problems with icing and condensation, and require more preventive maintenance work if they are to function in difficult conditions. Because of this, combined with the fact that shotguns have less precise sights and a limited range, the Governor of Svalbard recommends the use of rifles as the primary means of protection against polar bears.

If one is a resident or frequent visitor to the remote northern island and can verify their membership and activity in a "shooting association" to obtain the necessary prior permission, then a handgun can be used:

Excerpt from a Guidelines for polar bear protection PDF found on Google

Handguns for which an applicant is seeking a permit for use as protection against polar bears shall have a minimum calibre of 44.
Ammunition to be used for protection against polar bears shall have a minimum weight of 15.5 g [240 gr] and a minimum muzzle energy of 1,200J.

What I may take away from this is that my 16.5"-barreled (actually 17.25") .308W Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle loaded with 180 gr bo0lits should suffice for any bear in North America, if I do my part. Too, I would not feel undergunned if all I had were my 20"-barreled Miroku Browning 92 loaded with 240 gr lead soft points at close range... since I do not yet own a sufficient .44 magnum handgun. Although the '92 carbine less handy in tight quarters than a handgun, the .44 from a rifle barrel is even more powerful.

Is this misguided?

Dagnabbit! This is the Shotguns subforum. Nevermind.

d'oh.
.

 

[huntsman]

Don't know nothing about bears just shotgun and slugs. For me practicing with foster slugs at 50 yards is going to keep me sharp out to 80 yards, Sabots(scope) at 100 yards.

All I kill is deer.

 

[donparadowski]

With a smooth bore shotgun 75 yards is your comfortable max range but the animal is not really a threat as mentioned until under 25 yards (unless he or she has announced its intentions by charging at you).

As for the legal issues of crossing through Canada…Simply fly or take a barge (for you and your vehicle) from the Olympic peninsula to anywhere on the Alaskan coast. No customs and no serious questions asked.

 

[drive_sideways]

I agree with the 45-70
Loaded with hard cast buffalo bore loads it'll put a serious hurting on any bear, and will penetrate deep.
A marlin guide gun with a big loop (if ur wearing gloves) and a 18.5" barrel is very handy

 

[elano]

I don't have any money for a guide gun or other big bore rifle. My options are 44 mag pistol, 30-30 rifle, and 12 gauge with slugs. I've read slugs are the key because they will make a big hole and penetrate deep (bernekees).