SnakeLogan
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Missing will not be a problem for me at HD distances. And the walls and distance between my house an neighbors makes collateral damage a non-issue anyway.
What should I load in my 870 for HD?
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Missing will not be a problem for me at HD distances. And the walls and distance between my house an neighbors makes collateral damage a non-issue anyway.
Jason_W
Member
"I suspect you didn't calibrate your gelatin blocks? The penetration depths you're observing appear unusually deep. For example, maximum penetration of #4 buck (.24 caliber) is about 9-inches (one or two pellets achieve this depth), with the majority of shot distributed between 6-8 inches."
Correct. I didn't calibrate. It's just a backyard project and without climate controlled lab conditions, I can only keep the factors so consistent. Temperature is my enemy with all the media I've tried.
At what distance were your figures obtained? As I mentioned earlier, I was very close, and shot loses energy very rapidly.
Correct. I didn't calibrate. It's just a backyard project and without climate controlled lab conditions, I can only keep the factors so consistent. Temperature is my enemy with all the media I've tried.
At what distance were your figures obtained? As I mentioned earlier, I was very close, and shot loses energy very rapidly.
leadcounsel
member
00 buck
SnakeLogan
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What?? Max penetration about 9 inches for #4 buck? *Average* penetration for #4 buck is at least 12 inches.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 gauge number four buckshot.pdf
Leaky Waders
Member
Use bird shot for bird size targets...use buck shot for deer sized targets. If you anticipate a gang of pigeons agressively pursuing a home invasion - then stick to 7 1/2.
If you expect Big Bird and larger sized muppets that intend to do you bodily harm...then you may want something will real stopping power instead of relying on maiming power. i.e. buck shot.
My two cents,
L.W.
If you expect Big Bird and larger sized muppets that intend to do you bodily harm...then you may want something will real stopping power instead of relying on maiming power. i.e. buck shot.
My two cents,
L.W.
Al LaVodka
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Swan Shot, as it used to be called, which is generally .15 and greater up to about .25 s/be excellent for close range (+-15 yds.).
Al
Al
Shawn Dodson
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SnakeLogan writes:
Thanks for posting Brassfetcher's results. It compelled me to investigate further, as I could see no anomalies with Brassfetcher's calibration data that might explain the deeper penetration. Close examination of Brassfetcher's photos revealed very little deformation of the shot. Pellet deformation increases surface area and decreases sectional density, both of which would cause decreased penetration. I looked up MacPherson's Lead Alloy Sphere Penetration Depth data and discovered that MacPherson indicated that #4 Buckshot, propelled at 1250 fps, would theoretically penetrate about 14 inches in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin, provided the shot does not deform. Brassfetcher's results seem to validate MacPherson's theory. Whereas Fackler's wound profile appears to depict unhardened #4 buckshot, which were substantially deformed by acceleration and impact forces.
As a result of these findings I'm contemplating changing my 12-gauge home defense load from Federal LE132 00 to Federal F127 4B.
SnakeLogan, thank you for challenging my assertion. Without that I'd still be misinformed about terminal performance of modern #4 buck.
Cheers!
I relied upon Fackler's wound profile illustration for #4 Buckshot:
Thanks for posting Brassfetcher's results. It compelled me to investigate further, as I could see no anomalies with Brassfetcher's calibration data that might explain the deeper penetration. Close examination of Brassfetcher's photos revealed very little deformation of the shot. Pellet deformation increases surface area and decreases sectional density, both of which would cause decreased penetration. I looked up MacPherson's Lead Alloy Sphere Penetration Depth data and discovered that MacPherson indicated that #4 Buckshot, propelled at 1250 fps, would theoretically penetrate about 14 inches in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin, provided the shot does not deform. Brassfetcher's results seem to validate MacPherson's theory. Whereas Fackler's wound profile appears to depict unhardened #4 buckshot, which were substantially deformed by acceleration and impact forces.
As a result of these findings I'm contemplating changing my 12-gauge home defense load from Federal LE132 00 to Federal F127 4B.
SnakeLogan, thank you for challenging my assertion. Without that I'd still be misinformed about terminal performance of modern #4 buck.
Cheers!
Jason_W
Member
"Whereas Fackler's wound profile appears to depict unhardened #4 buckshot, which were substantially deformed by acceleration and impact forces."
That could explain my results as well. I'm using BPI buckshot which is very hard and didn't seem to deform much.
That could explain my results as well. I'm using BPI buckshot which is very hard and didn't seem to deform much.
SnakeLogan
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Cheers, Shawn Dodson. I love Brassfetcher's work, and he's a super nice guy too. He posts on THR from time to time.
Bear 45/70
member
You're one of those either WOT or stopped guys. Why not use a good in between load? Since bird shot is for birds and should never be used on a man sized target. Buck shot is for tough animals which a man is not. Go with #4 Buck. it is proven man stopper. Besides that why would you settle for 12 or 15 30 cal. pellets when the 25+ 22 cal. pellets will do the job and not over penetrate.
You don't think a well placed round or two of birdshot would be enough to stop a man at close range?
Shawn Dodson
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Under best case conditions birdshot will probably do the job. But the problem in a fight is the bad guy's body positioning may present an unusually deep penetration path to reach vitals and a well-placed hit with birdshot in this situation can fail to quickly stop him. Ditto if you must fire through a light barrier (couch, chair, mattress, etc.) to hit him.
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Guillermo
member
the lightweight of the pellet would not allow it to penetrate.
I would go for 4 shot in those conditions
I would go for 4 shot in those conditions
Thank you for the comment, Lee. After a lot of searching I finally found a box and am looking forward to patterning the #1 and comparing it with #4 and 00. The target will tell the tale (and most likely confirm your observations). I've also ordered a real stock for the 500, as the PGO is too limited in shooting positions.
Jason_W
Member
Has anyone tried loading #0000 buck yet? I gave it a try, but I couldn't get it to pattern.
Not that 0000 would be a good size pellet for HD, but I figured we're already on the topic of buckshot.
Not that 0000 would be a good size pellet for HD, but I figured we're already on the topic of buckshot.
Sheepdog1968
Member
Go to boxotruth.com website. Do it when you have time to read. There is like 3 or 4 hours of real world firearms testing on this type of issue. There are few words and many photos. I doubt you will find a more comprehensive site. My big takeaway messages from this were
1. ALL ammo (yes that means birdshot, 22's, and 223 - even the frangible stuff) will go through at least one wall in a house. Watching your backstop will always be a concern unless you have a brick or cement wall or similar bullet resistent backstop.
2. OO buck and slugs have adequate penetration for home defense
3. Birdshot and number 4 buckshot do not have adequate penetration for defense.
1. ALL ammo (yes that means birdshot, 22's, and 223 - even the frangible stuff) will go through at least one wall in a house. Watching your backstop will always be a concern unless you have a brick or cement wall or similar bullet resistent backstop.
2. OO buck and slugs have adequate penetration for home defense
3. Birdshot and number 4 buckshot do not have adequate penetration for defense.
Colton White
Member
4 buck
mljdeckard
Member
It depends on which load of #4. Copper-plated #4 magnums pattern well in my gun.
Quit worrying about 'overpenetration'. Of COURSE it will overpenetrate. If it wouldn't, why would you expect it to stop a bad guy?
You are speaking foolishly if you think EVERY pellet you fire in a defensive situation will hit the target EVERY time. There is no such thing as the perfect gun, perfect load, perfect shooter, or perfect situation. When you are fighting for your life, NOTHING will go as planned. Like Lee says, you need to plan in advance to make sure that the people in your house know what to do, and try to configure your house so that your most likely fields of fire will be clear of friendlies.
USE OVERWHELMING FORCE. You know what's worse than overpenetrating a wall and hitting a good guy? Overpenetrating, hitting a good guy, and still NOT putting the BAD GUY down.
Quit worrying about 'overpenetration'. Of COURSE it will overpenetrate. If it wouldn't, why would you expect it to stop a bad guy?
You are speaking foolishly if you think EVERY pellet you fire in a defensive situation will hit the target EVERY time. There is no such thing as the perfect gun, perfect load, perfect shooter, or perfect situation. When you are fighting for your life, NOTHING will go as planned. Like Lee says, you need to plan in advance to make sure that the people in your house know what to do, and try to configure your house so that your most likely fields of fire will be clear of friendlies.
USE OVERWHELMING FORCE. You know what's worse than overpenetrating a wall and hitting a good guy? Overpenetrating, hitting a good guy, and still NOT putting the BAD GUY down.
inSight-NEO
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I prefer low recoil 00 Buck. Yes, it is still penetrative, but at roughly 1100 fps, its not quite as much so as "standard" 00 Buck. Now, if "all I have" is birdshot or something of that nature, I will use it. But, again, I tend to go with the former.
I look at it this way. Given the close proximity of an HD encounter, I am far less likely to miss with a shotgun vs using, say, a handgun. Is it possible to miss with a shotgun? Sure. But, keep this in mind...most effective handgun loads used for HD (and many which are not) can also penetrate walls quite easily and in general, are much harder to aim well (effectively). How many of us use handguns for HD? Im betting plenty. Thus, this whole debate seems mute at times.
Sure, there is nothing wrong with minimizing risk. However, its a calculated risk at best. When firing a weapon in the home, in the middle of the night or whatever, you will ALWAYS have risk. It simply cannot be eliminated as far as Im concerned. This is where practice, awareness and a solid "mindset" come in to play.
Oh..and particularly within the home, do not freaking fire at a "target" unless you are absolutely sure it has been identified as a threat and is within reasonable range based on your current skill/ability. In addition, pay attention to the background (what is behind the "target"). To me, stuff like this means just as much, if not more, than what my gun is loaded up with.
So, whatever you decide to load in that 870 of yours, just be aware of the positives and negatives associated with it. Almost every load out there comes with both. Then, go out and shoot and then shoot some more. After all, you cannot stop what you cannot hit. In addition, try walking around the house... getting used to the layout. Become aware of "danger" areas, places/situations where a shotgun would be optimal, places/situations where a handgun may be a better choice and so forth. As you are doing so, think about the "what ifs?". It doesn't take long and can only help. Now, you do not have to get all "militant" about it, but just try to develop a general plan. Just keep in mind that even the best laid plans have a way of going to hell real quick!
IMHO, this kind of thinking (along with practice) can take you much further than spending most of the time worrying about what HD load you are using.
I look at it this way. Given the close proximity of an HD encounter, I am far less likely to miss with a shotgun vs using, say, a handgun. Is it possible to miss with a shotgun? Sure. But, keep this in mind...most effective handgun loads used for HD (and many which are not) can also penetrate walls quite easily and in general, are much harder to aim well (effectively). How many of us use handguns for HD? Im betting plenty. Thus, this whole debate seems mute at times.
Sure, there is nothing wrong with minimizing risk. However, its a calculated risk at best. When firing a weapon in the home, in the middle of the night or whatever, you will ALWAYS have risk. It simply cannot be eliminated as far as Im concerned. This is where practice, awareness and a solid "mindset" come in to play.
Oh..and particularly within the home, do not freaking fire at a "target" unless you are absolutely sure it has been identified as a threat and is within reasonable range based on your current skill/ability. In addition, pay attention to the background (what is behind the "target"). To me, stuff like this means just as much, if not more, than what my gun is loaded up with.
So, whatever you decide to load in that 870 of yours, just be aware of the positives and negatives associated with it. Almost every load out there comes with both. Then, go out and shoot and then shoot some more. After all, you cannot stop what you cannot hit. In addition, try walking around the house... getting used to the layout. Become aware of "danger" areas, places/situations where a shotgun would be optimal, places/situations where a handgun may be a better choice and so forth. As you are doing so, think about the "what ifs?". It doesn't take long and can only help. Now, you do not have to get all "militant" about it, but just try to develop a general plan. Just keep in mind that even the best laid plans have a way of going to hell real quick!
IMHO, this kind of thinking (along with practice) can take you much further than spending most of the time worrying about what HD load you are using.
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I think without a doubt that among the commonly available 12-gauge loads the greatest overall amount of tissue disruption and devastation is done by #4 buck. At close range, 27 pellets will penetrate about 12" into the target, pretty much all the way through an adult person of average size, wasting minimum energy in the process. The reason that #1 buck is considered by some "authorities" to be the ideal load to use against people instead is probably that it offers some extra margin in penetration for large and/or obese targets, as well as a slightly longer range, while still delivering 16 or so larger pellets. #00 buck is also a favorite because of its wide availability and guaranteed penetration at virtually any home-defense range and even after passing through light barriers. Finally, slugs have their uses but are not as effective on humans as buckshot, so I'd rule them out unless there is a good reason to use them.
So how to choose? Well, it depends on what you want, subjectively. If 9 largish pellets is enough for you, then #00 buck is probably the most versatile load because it'll take down even the biggest/fattest dude at a decent range (in a large house); it's also probably the best general load for hunting medium-large game, serving a dual purpose. On the other hand, if you think that 27 somewhat smaller wound tracks will do the job better against anybody anyway, even without full penetration in some cases, then #4 buck is for you. And finally some folks may be willing to compromise with 16 intermediate-sized pellets. Getting hit by any of these loads will hurt...a LOT.
As for mixed loads, why?
The battle is not necessarily going to unfold according to some predefined script, and you wouldn't want to have to keep track of what load you're going to shoot next, anyway (it'll be hard enough just to keep count if you can even do that). In my opinion, mixed loads are only useful with high-capacity automatic weapons, allowing you to mix in some tracers every few rounds, for instance, or achieve a combined terminal effect by alternating armor-piercing and high-explosive rounds with an autocannon for use against armored vehicles. Such a practice has no place in home defense with a shotgun (or any type of firearm, for that matter). If you strongly feel that you may possibly need to have slugs or other alternative loads on hand for certain unpredictable situations, then carry a few on your shotgun in a side saddle or speed feed stock as long as you think the tradeoff in ammo capacity is worthwhile.
So how to choose? Well, it depends on what you want, subjectively. If 9 largish pellets is enough for you, then #00 buck is probably the most versatile load because it'll take down even the biggest/fattest dude at a decent range (in a large house); it's also probably the best general load for hunting medium-large game, serving a dual purpose. On the other hand, if you think that 27 somewhat smaller wound tracks will do the job better against anybody anyway, even without full penetration in some cases, then #4 buck is for you. And finally some folks may be willing to compromise with 16 intermediate-sized pellets. Getting hit by any of these loads will hurt...a LOT.
As for mixed loads, why?
The battle is not necessarily going to unfold according to some predefined script, and you wouldn't want to have to keep track of what load you're going to shoot next, anyway (it'll be hard enough just to keep count if you can even do that). In my opinion, mixed loads are only useful with high-capacity automatic weapons, allowing you to mix in some tracers every few rounds, for instance, or achieve a combined terminal effect by alternating armor-piercing and high-explosive rounds with an autocannon for use against armored vehicles. Such a practice has no place in home defense with a shotgun (or any type of firearm, for that matter). If you strongly feel that you may possibly need to have slugs or other alternative loads on hand for certain unpredictable situations, then carry a few on your shotgun in a side saddle or speed feed stock as long as you think the tradeoff in ammo capacity is worthwhile.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Since some bab guys haved move up to BA; I keep some HP Slugs in mine along with the 00 Buck.
Al LaVodka
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I've never understood that multiple loads thing. It is just odd. If you aren't stopping someone with buckshot at Open Cylinder distances, I don't care what size pellets, just give up.
Al
Al
mljdeckard
Member
I agree. To mix your load is to assume that you know what the situation will be. When you are fighting, you need to know what that load is with every shot. Mixing it means you have added a step to the thought process. I could see someone having a different load in the sidesaddle in case they NEED it, but not mixing it in the gun.
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