What should I watch for with used Colts?

[strat81]

I'm gonna troll the gun show this weekend for a Colt revolver. I'm considering the Det. Special, Cobra, Agent, Trooper, and Lawman. I'm looking for a shooter, not a collector's piece. I do not own any revolvers. Anything I should pay particular attention to?

I've read the sticky above for checking out used revolvers and assume all of that applies to Colts.

Many thanks, gents!

 

[rcmodel]

To me, the biggest thing with the older Colt design is to make sure the cylinder locks up tight with the trigger pulled all the way back.

Unlike S&W, the Colt action holds pressure against the cylinder ratchet & locking bolt to lock the cylinder in place tightly at the moment of firing.

If you have movement, you have a Colt nearing the need for re-timing & tightening work.

rcmodel

 

[strat81]

Unlike S&W, the Colt action holds pressure against the cylinder ratchet & locking bolt to lock the cylinder in place tightly at the moment of firing.

If you have movement, you have a Colt nearing the need for re-timing & tightening work.

How much and who does that kind of work?

 

[Old Fuff]

1. Look at all the screw heads. Are they buggered up or burred? If so proceed with great care, and it might be best to keep walking.

2. After checking to be sure it is unloaded, latch the cylinder and see if you can press on its left side and spring the crane away from the frame. The crane is the part that holds the cylinder when it is swung out. Look at it from the front.

3. Cock the hammer, and lower it with your thumb while holding the trigger all of the way back. Then while holding the trigger see if you can rotate the cylinder. Only a tiny wiggle is acceptable.

4. Pull the trigger back far enough so that the cylinder bolt is depressed enough so that the cylinder can be turned. Then turn the cylinder while watching the ejector rod to see if it wobbles. A wobble indicates a bent rod.

5. Keep in mind that it is wise to spend the money for a revolver in better condition, then it is to buy a lesser one and end up spending the difference on repairs; but at the same time remember that many guns may be finish worn (because they were carried) but in perfect mechanical shape (because they were seldom used or shot). When it comes to used guns, cosmetics (how good it looks) is usually the basis for the asking price.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Keep in mind that it is wise to spend the money for a revolver in better condition, then it is to buy a lesser one and end up spending the difference on repairs...

Let me add, please, it's excruciatingly difficult to find gunsmiths competent to work on Colt revolvers. They'll all tell you they can, and a lot of them even believe it.

 

[baker437]

+1 for all that. If this is your first revolver you may want to look at a S&W or ruger. I learned this the hard way.

Also check out coltforum.com

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff, who generally fixes his own Colt's, agrees. However there are a few such ‘smiths left, and of course Colt’s Service Department. The bad news is that they are often behind, and justifiably expensive. In addition, parts for pre-war revolvers can sometimes be hard to find, and they need to be new ones because those that were recovered for other guns were individually fitted to that gun, and may not work in a different one.

However a correctly fitted Colt is a joy. They were built by craftsman who cared about what they were doing, and the more important internal parts were made from machined 100% steel heat-treated forgings. I doubt they will ever be seen again at any price, and they represent a quality benchmark that’s unlikely to be equaled. In an age when some marksmen(?) compare groups shot at 15 yards these old Colt’s will do equal or better at 50, and sometimes beyond.

 

[Hawk]

Let me add, please, it's excruciatingly difficult to find gunsmiths competent to work on Colt revolvers. They'll all tell you they can, and a lot of them even believe it.

I made that discovery a bit late but certainly found it to be true.

I'll chime in with the observation that a used Colt had better be 100% mechanically. The way you find it may well be the best it will ever be.

Nothing works better to produce S&W collectors than an ill-fitted or ill-used Colt. A bit of care up front and skepticism, if called for, after the fact will save you a pantload of potential grief.

The good ones are nice indeed but I sometimes wonder if they even account for 50% of what's left on the market. A shooter Colt DA will be, by definition, used. The quality of such previous use varies wildly. I suspect the quality of hand fitting also varied based on hangovers and distracted minds looking toward that evening's union strike meeting. If I had a list of what serial numbers were produced during which labor difficulties I would approach the whole enterprise with greater confidence. As it is, I liken it to shooting craps.

An irony of the modern age is that, should I have the temerity to assert that Colt's hand fitted models were "delicate", someone would come along within, at most, a half dozen posts to provide a link to an article about how they're not delicate. The irony comes from the observation that the article is written by an acknowledged top Colt 'smith who happens to be so busy he hasn't taken new work since November of '07. Some very few of us don't see a practical difference between "delicate" and "needing breathtakingly difficult to obtain maintenance". Pretty much the same thing where I come from.

 

[KyJim]

Only a tiny wiggle is acceptable.

I personally would not accept any wiggle on a Colt (okay with a SW) but I don't work on my Colts.

 

[ak-kev]

I've never seen a Colt I wouldnt buy. Heck, Im trying to remember any I didnt buy They are simply fantastic!!

 

[strat81]

Thanks for all of the responses so far. I know about the PITA that comes with getting Colts serviced. I did say I wanted a shooter, and I meant that, but I'm not gonna be shooting 200 rounds of heavy .357 loads through it every week.

If Colt parts are so hard to find, why hasn't someone set up a machine shop cranking out Colt parts? Everyone and their brother makes 1911 parts, it seems like there'd be a market for quality replacement Colt parts.

 

[Old Fuff]

I personally would not accept any wiggle on a Colt (okay with a SW) but I don't work on my Colts.

Now don’t let any of this get out because its top secret. Mum’s the word, right???

A hundred percent “no wiggle” bank vault door lock-up is only good if the chamber is absolutely concentric with the bore. If it isn’t you’re going to shave lead and even batter the side of the forcing cone, and it has to be equally true on all of the chambers, not just one or two.

Now there was a time when you could expect all of the chambers to be concentric with the bore, and when that was true the unquestionably tight lockup did work.

But that was a long, long time ago…

A tiny (emphasis “tiny”) bit of rotational play will compensate for any chamber/bore misalignment.

Now if you have a range rod (a gauge used to check chamber/bore concentricity) and all six chambers pass inspection, I’ll agree that a zero movement lockup is O.K.

Otherwise I stand on what I said.

 

[Old Fuff]

If Colt parts are so hard to find, why hasn't someone set up a machine shop cranking out Colt parts? Everyone and their brother makes 1911 parts, it seems like there'd be a market for quality replacement Colt parts.

Everybody and his brother are making (more or less) copies of Browning's big .45 pistol, and most of the buyers can't wait to start changing out parts.

On the revolver side of the coin, relatively few users are rebuilding older guns, But Numrich - The Gun Parts Corp. (e-gunparts.com) are offering new-made cylinder bolts and hands.

 

[CU74]

Anything I should pay particular attention to?

Other than the unsecured loan interest rates at you local bank, everything else has been pretty much covered. Colt revolver prices have passed the ridiculous point in the past few months.

I own several - Trooper, Cobra, Detective Special, Diamondbacks, Pythons, a 2nd Issue Police Positive - but my Smiths and Six-series Rugers get most of the range time. The dearth of qualified Colt gunsmiths and replacement parts keeps my Colts "in reserve" for most range trips.

All of that said, I wish you luck at the gun show. IMHO, every lover of fine revolvers should have a few Colts.

 

[Hawk]

The dearth of qualified Colt gunsmiths and replacement parts keeps my Colts "in reserve" for most range trips.

My Python is only lightly used at present as well but the Anaconda is still seeing a fair amount of use.

Hopefully not too much of a thread veer but I've got it in my head that the Anaconda was a late design, didn't require parts fitting and is hence easier to get worked on - is this correct?

And, if so, what were the other models that were "Anaconda robust" as opposed to "Python fussy*"?




*"fussy" is intended to not be synonomous with "delicate" and less controversial in general internet use.

 

[Old Fuff]

Hopefully not too much of a thread veer but I've got it in my head that the Anaconda was a late design, didn't require parts fitting and is hence easier to get worked on - is this correct?

You’re right. In fact you could make most lockwork repairs by exchanging parts with no special fitting. The exception would be a broken firing pin (which seldom happens) but when it does the revolver has to go back to the factory.

By the middle 1970’s Colt had finely realized that the older guns, the basic design of which dated back to 1908 and earlier, wouldn’t ever be affordable to make in a modern manufacturing economy. So they started with a clean piece of paper. Jerry Kuhnhausen, of shop manual fame, stated that in his opinion they were the strongest revolver for they’re frame size, as they were larger then a S&W, equal in size to a Ruger, but had a frame that was made from a forging, not an investment casting. Some might argue that, but the Mk series of revolvers solved a lot of problems inherent in the older models, and they are built like a brick outhouse.

 

[Hawk]

So, if my search-fu is working, the other models that could be owner serviced for the most part would be the Lawman, Trooper and Police MkIII?

That could expand my horizons some.

It looks like the Lawman was a fixed sight version of the Trooper - I can't see a difference in the pics between the Official Police Mk III and the Lawman but the Lawman appears to have had both lugged and plain versions?

How's that for the new kid's searching?

...and, I do remember my promise to stay well clear of any bidders named Fuff come August 14, 15 and 16 on Colts - the above is simply for my education in re: local prowlings about.

 

[strat81]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4212935&postcount=4
The Official Police is a .38, not a .357. (I'm learning too!)

 

[Hawk]

Cool.

So the King Cobra is one of the newer ones even though it doesn't have a "Mk" in the designation (like the Anaconda), and the Police had both "Official" and "Metropolitan" prefixes.

Hmmm. I can see a whole new world opening up...

 

[strat81]

Hmmm. I can see a whole new world opening up...

I think that's your wallet opening up...

 

[Old Fuff]

The Official Police MkIII and Metropolitan were .38 Specials, the latter one having a heavy barrel. The Lawman was similar, but in .357 Magnum. All of these had fixed sights. The Trooper had adjustable sights, and was usually a .357 Magnum.

The Anaconda was built on a larger frame, usually chambered in .44 Magnum or .45 Colt. They are especially popular and generally command big bucks. The Troopers are more common, and much less expensive. The fixed sight models, especially in .38 Special don't attract special prices, and I once "stole" a Official Police/.38/6"/blue for $140.00. These days such grand theft is getting harder...

 

[Old Fuff]

...and, I do remember my promise to stay well clear of any bidders named Fuff come August 14, 15 and 16 on Colts

Not to worry (I think). Most of that auction is going to be new guns, taken from the inventory of a going-out-of-business retailer. Of course there could be exceptions because they had some used guns in stock. Other then the possibility of some King Cobra's and Anaconda's that might attract some high bids, I don't expect much action on post 1970 Colt revolvers - but you never know.

Unless lightning strikes, I'll be looking for buys on accessories, parts, ammunition and other stuff less likely to attract attention.

 

[baker437]

Nothing works better to produce S&W collectors than an ill-fitted or ill-used Colt.

I am proof of that. May be I can think about the Mk guns but I doubt it.

 

[KyJim]

Now don’t let any of this get out because its top secret. Mum’s the word, right???

Old Fluff,

Very interesting thoughts. All my Colts (6) lock up tight but all the chambers in each revolver are concentric with the bore, at least by eyeballing. I've also not experienced any spitting lead. I don't shoot my Colts heavily so this may be why I haven't experienced this particular problem yet.

 

[baker437]

I don't shoot my Colts heavily

This seems to be a recurring theme in this thread. I buy guns to shoot. I may like them for other reasons also but if I can’t shoot it than it serves no purpose. Also if I want an investment I will stick with my stocks (especially ones with good dividends) and bonds not tools. Just my 2 cents.