inthelineofire
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Cost is not an issue here. I bought a little of everything before prices skyrocketed, and it's not like I'm going to need 100 rounds for my HD shotgun. 
What size HD buckshot?
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In the video there was a mockup of four interior "walls" with each wall 1/2" sheetrock spaced with 2"x4"'s. Just like real life. Then the guy proceeded to shoot through the walls with many common rounds considered low penetration. .22's, 9MM frangible, lightweight .223, frangible .223, 12GA buckshot and 12guage birdshot. In almost every case except birdshot, at least part of the round (if not all) made it through all four walls and an unknown distance beyond that.
All the stuff advocated here for low penetration, except birdshot. Birdshot stopped INSIDE the second wall. I am not planning on using it outside the house, just from zero to 20 feet. And do I expect one shot to knock a BG out of his socks dead? No, that is why I have 7 shots. One shot might not stop a BG, but I am reasonable sure he will freeze up for a second. A second is all that is needed for a follow up shot, and another as needed.
I think it is unreasonable to think that a BG won't notice a hit at chose range. With that you have more time to do what is needed. At 0-20 feet I think you'll get further with 7 rounds of 12 guage and #6 than you will with 12 rounds of 9mm.
Life is a tradeoff. I would not even moved to a shotgun if penetration was not a concern, I could have stuck with an AR15. In Texas if you kill a bystander accidentally while defending yourself, you are going to jail. In a city setting like ours, most directions you can shoot is going to be right at another dwelling.
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Pattern means nothing at household distances. Unless everyone here lives in a 20,000 sqare foot mansion the extreme dimensions of a typical single story house will have no distance greater than 60 feet (20 yards) wall to wall (considering 60x60 would be a 3,600 sqft house) so unless you and your target have your back to the extreme walls you will likely be at some distance way less than that.
If your gun throws extreemly tight patterns at 25 yards then at typical household ranges of 5 to 10 yds they'll be even tighter in which case you are not better off than with a slug and need to aim very carefully. The lack of spread actually negates the shotguns main advantage of delivering multiple dispersed wounds on a target that have a high chance that one or more of these impacts will be in a vital spot.
If your gun throws extreemly tight patterns at 25 yards then at typical household ranges of 5 to 10 yds they'll be even tighter in which case you are not better off than with a slug and need to aim very carefully. The lack of spread actually negates the shotguns main advantage of delivering multiple dispersed wounds on a target that have a high chance that one or more of these impacts will be in a vital spot.
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inthelineofire
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That is where you and I are different. I want my FIRST SHOT to STOP the perp.... Not make him "freeze up for a second." I don't really want to NEED take a follow up shot.
My walls have insulation in them.
Let me get you logic straight in my mind. You have a gun for self defense. A situation that would allow its use is that your life is, presumably, in danger. The gun would be deployed to stop an imminent threat. To accomplish that task what ever projectiles are fired need to reach and damage the CNS or major organs. In the case of the later a physiological stop is not likely to be immediate. As unpleasant as the though is the person will likely need to loose a fair amount of blood to be genuinely physically disabled. What does that mean? The CNS is fairly well armored. To whit bird shot is not likely to penetrate ones skull. It also cannot be counted on act like a slug. If it does why doesn't it penetrate sheet rock like a slug? It wont penetrate sheet rock like a slug but it will penetrate a BG and his potentially heavy clothing like a slug? Keep in mind as we discuss penetration that you may not have a nice full frontal shot. The BG might be bladed off or any other number of conceivable. and not improbable, scenarios. You cannot count on bird shot to deliever the type of terminal balliutics you'll want in any situation that justifies using a shotgun in defense. I have shot birds at distances that I could shoot in my house that I had to go wring their necks. If it doesn't kill a pheasant why would it drop a 200 Lbs human?
You are expressing a sentiment that we can all identify with. If that horrible moment arrived that one was forced to shoot another person in self defense then of course you want the threat stopped ASAP. It is important to remember however follow up shots will not only possibly be needed but that they should be planned on. Guns are not death rays. Even a slug from a 3" mag cannot be counted on to provide an immediate stop. I have seen deer take them and run a hundred yards+. If a whitetail can make it a few hundred yards is it so unreasonable to think a 200Lbs + human might make it 20' or return fire?
You insulate your interior walls with kevlar insulation? That is not code down here.
Down here I can't kill bystanders to save my own neck. And I don't want to kill my wife or kid a couple rooms over either.
Lets test it. You start 20 feet from me, and see if you can get to me before I stop you. Will I stop a 400 #, ampped up on PCP terroist who was just promissed 1,000 virgins if he can kill me before I stop him? I don't know. I don't think that is who I am defending myself against.
Some people here think that birdshot at 20 feet will be like using a squirt gun. I don't think that is true. Get hit with 5-6 paintballs all at the same time. Your body will be frozen in pain for at least several seconds. And you probably want to leave my house bigtime now. I have 7 shots in case the first 6 don't get the message across.
Don't bother responding if nothing less than 3.5" magnum slugs/000 buckshot shells are all you can imagine other people using. I personally would not even be using a shotgun but for peneration is now a real issue in our house.
RSVP2RIP
Member
Personally I use #1. Specifically Federal Classic F127 1B 16 Pellet. It groups well, Capstick thought highly of it, in europe, SSG size shot, which is most common, is closest to #1, it has the most energy to payload of most buck loads and is .30" compared to .33" of 00 buck. Pattern what you want to as well as what you don't want to use and you will find what worls best for you. Several sources sugest #4 for HD in apartments and such. ABSOLUTLY NO CREDIBLE sources I have read actually sugest using bird shot of any size for HD, by choice.
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Gryffydd
Member
So the video specifically showed that the penetration of birdshot is woefully inadequate... If it won't penetrate a couple layers of drywall it won't penetrate to vitals.
Yes, it's about compromises, but one thing I won't compromise on is a round that's able to actually stop someone, not motivate them to choose to stop
It has been tested. It does not have the penetration it needs to work reliably.
Are you serious?
RSVP2RIP
Member
I agree, from experience, that getting hit with 5-6 paintballs at the same time, does not send me to the ground convulsing in pain. It made me run, to my misfortune, towards the point of origin.
Gryffydd
Member
OC sometimes just enrages people and makes them more aggressive rather than eliminating them as a threat.
...
I just realized how that sounds exactly like something one of the anti-open carry people around here would say...
...
I just realized how that sounds exactly like something one of the anti-open carry people around here would say...
snooperman
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#4 buck in the house
The first 3 is loaded with #4 buck followed by 2 OO buckshot. Remington has a new load designed for home defense that just came on the market, loaded with BB. They say it is ideal for in the house. I have not used it but the Coast Guard and Navy is using it for certain applications.
The first 3 is loaded with #4 buck followed by 2 OO buckshot. Remington has a new load designed for home defense that just came on the market, loaded with BB. They say it is ideal for in the house. I have not used it but the Coast Guard and Navy is using it for certain applications.
You cannot anywhere. It does not negate my point. Over penetration might be an issue for you. That does not mean bird shot is a reliable or sufficient HD option. It does not mean that bird shot does not have all the short coming that I stated.
I guess I shouldn't be suprised that someone who reasons that the same ammo that cannot go through some drywall will stop a person fills there retorts with red herrings and poor logic. Even if we conducted your proposed test the results of it would be called an antidote. That said there have been enough cases of people getting shot with bird shot and surviving to know that it would be with in the realm of possibility for a person to survive. Ask Dick Cheney if he thinks birdshot is a man stopper. Hell, I know a guy that was on the receiving end of someone swinging through a shot on a pheasant and coming around and hitting him. Was it pleasant? No. Was he dead? No. Was he immediately incapacitated? No.
Are you serious? Maybe if you have a low pain tolerance as were the kid that played PC games instead of contact sports. I've been shot with multiple paintballs before and it was hardly parylizing pain, it did leave some welts but was nothing approaching the experience you are describing. I know people who have been shot with real guns and not imediately realized it.
Hyberbole is not a better replacement for logic or evidence than your red herrings are. No one has said anything approaching that. What people have said is that birdshot does not have reliable penetration to be a good choice for HD. Re-read my post about what can reliably cause physiological stops from gun shots. Tell me what part of that is wrong.
Another comment that seeks to use rhetoric instead of addressing the validity of any of the claims made by those that assert that bird shot is a poor choice. That is what your whole post was. You did not raise one legitimate counter point nor did you even address the issues. Lets recap your post. You spewed rhetoric in place of facts or reason. At least it is easy for those who may not be familiar with firearms or the like to see that you do not have a tenable position. BTW, my current load is a 2 3/4 reduced recoil 00 buckshot load. If you'd read my critically you might note that I suggested people test a wide range of load to see which perform well for them and their gun. Does that sound like I think one needs to have a specific load that I approve of? That is not the only reason your false dichotomy theme--if one doesn't like bird shot they must think it has to be the most powerful loadings available--was asinine and contributed nothing to this thread other than to point out that your reasoning skills are wanting and to underscore the "logic" that also lead you to think bird shot was a good HD choice.
Humor me on this point because I have a theory. What professional training have you acquired in the defensive (or tactical generally) use of shotguns?
Additionally instead of offering more logical fallacies and rhetoric please tell me why bird shot will be able to reach the vitals of BG when it cannot get through sheet rock?
The fact is anything that can preform like it needs to for SD/HD will be able to go through drywall.
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I have nothing but OO buck in the tubes of my two main shotguns. I keep a couple of slugs and some "less than lethals" in the side saddle or in the speed feed stock. The shotgun is my go to gun and I keep OO buck in it because it's what I'm familiar with and it pretty versatile. I like to keep some alternative ammo on hand in case my needs change.
Girodin,
I think you pretty much summed up your point
I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator. All the pistol caliber frangible rounds and the .223 rounds touted for acceptable HD (i.e. lack of over-penetration) all share the same limitation - it's hard to drill a BG 14" deep but stop in the first or second wall.
You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide. I’m sure you’re a real riot in the “what .380 for SD” threads too.
What you don't get is that many reasonable people are trying to balance two things, their own safety with the safety of bystanders. Since you don’t get it, you can’t even contribute with “hay this is a more effective round with the same (lack of wall) penetration if you miss.” You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.
I have families with little kids on three sides of me, not to mention my own family. I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.
I think you pretty much summed up your point
I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator. All the pistol caliber frangible rounds and the .223 rounds touted for acceptable HD (i.e. lack of over-penetration) all share the same limitation - it's hard to drill a BG 14" deep but stop in the first or second wall.
You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide. I’m sure you’re a real riot in the “what .380 for SD” threads too.
What you don't get is that many reasonable people are trying to balance two things, their own safety with the safety of bystanders. Since you don’t get it, you can’t even contribute with “hay this is a more effective round with the same (lack of wall) penetration if you miss.” You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.
I have families with little kids on three sides of me, not to mention my own family. I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.
From a link posted in another thread
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428
The author says three rooms because they didn't have more in their testing. It could well be (and from what I had seen it is) more.
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428
The author says three rooms because they didn't have more in their testing. It could well be (and from what I had seen it is) more.
arizona98tj
Member
Hopefully none of us will ever have to shoot a BG 100 times in our house.
That being said....do you not practice? 100 rounds is maybe two trips to the range for a shotgun session. I buy 00 buckshot by the case.
I do believe that there are contributors in this thread (and I'm not addressing the person I quoted) who have never had a stitch of professional training in the effective use of a shotgun nor bother to spend any substantial time at the range in order to maintain their skill at arms. If you are worried about excess penetrations through walls and such, then get some professional trigger training and spend time practicing so you'll be able to hit the BG and not worry so darn much about missed shots going places you don't want them to go.
Remember, your reactions and performance during a gun fight will most likely be half as good as your worst day at the range. How bad can you afford to be?Gryffydd
Member
A .380 would be vastly better for defense than birdshot
No, but you're trying to sell it as being sufficient for defense.
And you're in a rut of putting yourself and your family in danger by using a round that won't stop a threat. You say you're balancing your safety with your neighbors, but you're selling yourself short.
Right, because if someone says birdshot isn't enough for HD they must think you should use a .458 Win Mag with solids
Again with the false dilemma.Because we all know there's only a .001% difference in performance between buckshot and birdshot...
Maybe you should figure out your shooting lanes ahead of time. Remember, you're not going to be clearing your house SWAT style. Hole up, defend, ambush. Pick your shots.
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pmrtruck
Member
Birdshot, I once thought like you, kinda hard to imagine anyone walking through a blast and still getting you... Times change. Check this out, this is what birdshot does...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc1_1188927831
I now use slugs and am going to get some 00 buckshot. 2 3/4" shells have enough power with a 1 ounce slug and are easier to shoot than 3". Not by much but why should I work so hard.
I want to try less-than lethal but the costs are so damned high for that stuff. I figure why should I pay extra so a BG can have another chance at their POS life. I am now toying with the one shot idea.
Shot placement.
Shotguns are great machines.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc1_1188927831
I now use slugs and am going to get some 00 buckshot. 2 3/4" shells have enough power with a 1 ounce slug and are easier to shoot than 3". Not by much but why should I work so hard.
I want to try less-than lethal but the costs are so damned high for that stuff. I figure why should I pay extra so a BG can have another chance at their POS life. I am now toying with the one shot idea.
Shot placement.
Shotguns are great machines.
#1 buck is the smallest size that will reliably penetrate to the depths required to reach vitals. What that means is more holes in vitals than a larger pellet size. Going beyond the vitals into more non vital tissue does not make the round deadlier than having more going through vitals.
The reason police have long used 00 buck is because it is better for a wider range of applications from further distances. It retains energy and patterns better at 15-20 yards, realistic ranges for a PD. They shoot in and around vehicles, needing more penetration.
So something with slightly lower stopping power, but more versatile in a wider range of applications is better for police use.
That said #1 buck being optimal is against thin clothed individuals with no concealment or cover at close range. Add some household items in the way, a car door, some heavy clothing, or over 10 yards of distance and it may no longer be optimal.
Think of it this way, if the vitals are reached and penetrated, additional penetration is unnecessary, it just penetrates more non vital tissue, and sacrifices more pellets that could be penetrating vital tissue.
16 .30 pellets of #1 if they all penetrate through the vitals is a combined diameter of 4.8 inches. 9 .33 00 buck pellets is a combined total of 2.97 inches. That is 1.83 inches of difference.
If you then add the third dimension, the wound channel depth and consider only up to and just through the vitals is of maximum importance, and more is wasted. So the smallest buckshot that will do that will inflict the greatest damage to vitals.
#1 buck has been shown through studies to be that size from reasonable distances.
I am not advocating #1 buck, but it contains the largest stopping potential of any size buckshot at home defense ranges against a a human target with nothing in between the target and the pellets. No cover, no body armor, and thin clothing at close range.
00 buck retains nearly 3/4 of the stopping power of #1 buck, but is far more versatile at longer ranges, or when there is heavy clothing, or minor objects in the way. It retains energy at longer ranges and often patterns better. So it will perform reliably under more circumstances.
Anything smaller than #1 buck is not shown to reliably penetrate to vitals within practical ranges of the shotgun.
It can still be deadly at closer ranges, but is even less reliable. #4 buck may be suitable for applications at ranges just outside of muzzle blast but within a small room. Even tiny birdshot is lethal within the range of the muzzle blast (consider it is used to blow locks open, doors open, and destroy hinges from a few inches away.) But birdshot loses effectiveness in feet, and outside of muzzle blast range is too far, and getting that close to a home intruder with a long arm unnecessarily puts you at excessive risk.
Shot size is all about compromise. Bigger is not always better. Smaller is less penetration, and larger is less payload and holes in the target.
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prmtruck,
I don't have audio on my computer, how far away was the shooter? I haven't patterned my HD gun yet but I would think at 20 feet you would get a pattern a few inches across. That pattern looked like it would be a couple feet in diameter I am assuming the shoot was more like 20 yards away, not 20 feet. How many intruders would take a hit to the face like that at 20 yards and keep coming? Plus you have 20 more yards to discourage him.
How can you be that far away? The longest distance i could possibly be from an intruder (and still be line of sight) is about 30 feet. Generally the longest distance i could be in our house is 20 feet. For this ambush of which you speak, we would generally be 10 feet apart.
I don't know how realistic this is. Which way is the BG coming from? One of the three doors of the house? A window? Where are my kids? Wife? Can I really train my wife to have figgured all this out in advance?
What differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with? There seem to be plenty of people with actual hands on experiance that would give a single round of birdshot very high marks. And again i am prepared to give you 7:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293449
From what I have read on the subject, people with actual experiance give birdshot decent marks at HD range. We all agree there are things that could be better, but nobody with actual experiance believe birdshot at 20 feet is a toy. Then there are people with no experiance who are able to conclude that those using birdshot are morons
Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while. I am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away) with birdshot, you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.
I don't have audio on my computer, how far away was the shooter? I haven't patterned my HD gun yet but I would think at 20 feet you would get a pattern a few inches across. That pattern looked like it would be a couple feet in diameter I am assuming the shoot was more like 20 yards away, not 20 feet. How many intruders would take a hit to the face like that at 20 yards and keep coming? Plus you have 20 more yards to discourage him.
How can you be that far away? The longest distance i could possibly be from an intruder (and still be line of sight) is about 30 feet. Generally the longest distance i could be in our house is 20 feet. For this ambush of which you speak, we would generally be 10 feet apart.
I don't know how realistic this is. Which way is the BG coming from? One of the three doors of the house? A window? Where are my kids? Wife? Can I really train my wife to have figgured all this out in advance?
What differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with? There seem to be plenty of people with actual hands on experiance that would give a single round of birdshot very high marks. And again i am prepared to give you 7:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293449
From what I have read on the subject, people with actual experiance give birdshot decent marks at HD range. We all agree there are things that could be better, but nobody with actual experiance believe birdshot at 20 feet is a toy. Then there are people with no experiance who are able to conclude that those using birdshot are morons
Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while. I am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away) with birdshot, you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
I hadn't seen this link before. Good information on wall peneration of different shotgun loadings.
I hadn't seen this link before. Good information on wall peneration of different shotgun loadings.
Gryffydd
Member
Are any of these people actual professionals? I can find you plenty of random dudes on internet forums who think birdshot is great (Hey, look at you!). What exactly is your criteria for people with "experiance"? [sic] I also like how you linked to a story about a guy who shot himself at point blank range with both barrels of birdshot and he didn't die...
Did you think I was talking about a single shot .380?
Wait, paintballs will make someone freeze with pain but being shot with a .380 won't?
Second, at least a .380 is capable of reliably penetrating to vitals. A truly lucky CNS hit is one where birdshot somehow manages to penetrate enough to get a CNS hit. Yet somehow you seem to think birdshot is more likely to magically reach something vital?
See, that's just the thing. I don't want to rely on what someone may make someone uninterested in fighting. I want to rely on something that can make them incapable of fighting.
Well let's see here...one reliably penetrates to vitals, one reliably fails to penetrate to vitals. When it comes to actually STOPPING someone, that's an ENORMOUS difference. If it were .0001% don't you think all the police agencies would be using birdshot instead of buckshot?
Gryffydd
Member
Yes, that is an excellent link. Let's take a look at it, shall we?
Thanks for the excellent link!
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