What technically makes Ammunition AP Ammo?
- Thread starter Mr. T
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SS109/M855 bullet composition is a copper alloy jacket (which does not exceed 25% bullet weight), with a compound projectile core composed of a mild steel (approx. 33%) tip and common lead alloy (approx. 66%).
The United States military designation for M855 is ball. The NATO designation for SS109 is ball. The military armor piercing ammunition is M995. The composition of the first two cartridges has 3 parts, a steel tip in the front 1/3 of the projectile, lead composing approximately 2/3 of the remainder of the body of the projectile, and a jacket around these components. The composition of the THIRD cartridge (what the US Military and NATO classify as armor piercing) contains a core composed 100% of tungsten.
Clearly there is a substantial difference in these projectiles; our military and NATO designate M855 and SS109 as Ball ammunition; M995 is designated as Armor Piercing.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m993.htm
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
M855 Ball
M955 AP
BATFE cites 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) in the definition of armor piercing ammunition.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
The United States military designation for M855 is ball. The NATO designation for SS109 is ball. The military armor piercing ammunition is M995. The composition of the first two cartridges has 3 parts, a steel tip in the front 1/3 of the projectile, lead composing approximately 2/3 of the remainder of the body of the projectile, and a jacket around these components. The composition of the THIRD cartridge (what the US Military and NATO classify as armor piercing) contains a core composed 100% of tungsten.
Clearly there is a substantial difference in these projectiles; our military and NATO designate M855 and SS109 as Ball ammunition; M995 is designated as Armor Piercing.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m993.htm
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
M855 Ball
M955 AP
BATFE cites 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) in the definition of armor piercing ammunition.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
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LocoGringo
Member
As I understand it and have read the actual code, any bullet with a core that is made of steel, tungsten (and a bunch of different metals and alloys other than lead) that can penetrate level II body armor (I think). I know, it's a real specific definition I've provided, but it's the best my frozen memory can recall.
Basically, it boils down to a bullet with some metal other than a lead core than can penetrate a specific level of body armor. Since the M855 ammo is still lead core (it has a steel penetrator tip), technically, it's not armor piercing.
Basically, it boils down to a bullet with some metal other than a lead core than can penetrate a specific level of body armor. Since the M855 ammo is still lead core (it has a steel penetrator tip), technically, it's not armor piercing.
Jim Watson
Member
No, Loco.
The legal definition of armor piercing handgun ammunition is a bullet made of or cored with one of the Seven Bad Metals. There is no requirement of actual bullet resistant vest penetration.
Note the letter of the law: "(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed ENTIRELY (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium' (Emphasis added.)
The M855 bullet does not meet that definition.
The Army does not call it armor piercing.
We are being bureaucratically boondoggled.
No, Mope.
The top round has the SS109 bullet used in M855. I do not know what the next one is but it is Something Else.
The legal definition of armor piercing handgun ammunition is a bullet made of or cored with one of the Seven Bad Metals. There is no requirement of actual bullet resistant vest penetration.
Note the letter of the law: "(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed ENTIRELY (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium' (Emphasis added.)
The M855 bullet does not meet that definition.
The Army does not call it armor piercing.
We are being bureaucratically boondoggled.
No, Mope.
The top round has the SS109 bullet used in M855. I do not know what the next one is but it is Something Else.
Thank you everyone! You did not disappoint! In many of our personal discussions....the "experts" come from outside the discussion. Everything you all pointed out, I pointed out to one of my associates and they chose to debate me on my definition....you all pretty much stated what I did. Thank you all for your accurate and definitive explanations.
Regards,
Mr. T
Regards,
Mr. T
Shovelhead
Member
chris in va
Member
I do know that the 'green tip' bullets I reloaded will do damage to my AR500 steel, whereas the standard FMJ will not. I almost didnt catch them in time as they were mixed together.
LocoGringo
Member
Thanks for the correction. I was working off of memory, very roughly. I thought I'd read that the body armor level was included, but apparently wrong. Thanks also for providing the actual text of the law.
My post was a poor post and I actually thought of deleting it after I read it. Maybe I should have...
Thermactor
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http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf
I recommend that EVERYBODY takes the time to CAREFULLY read the BATFE 17 page brief to see where they are going with this.
They are basically saying that the law, as mandated by Congress, which arbitrarily decides armor piercing abilities based off metal content, is inconsistent with the ATF's mission to protect the lives of police officers. Therefore they will use their extraordinary powers granted by the GCA and LEOPA to do an endrun around Congress and the law and designate ANY CARTRIDGE as armor-piercing.
Read the PDF. Read the PDF.
Read the PDF.
They have signed themselves a blank check with this memorandum and have granted themselves power to act outside of the law and they state it in plain English.
M855 is JUST THE BEGINNING.
I recommend that EVERYBODY takes the time to CAREFULLY read the BATFE 17 page brief to see where they are going with this.
They are basically saying that the law, as mandated by Congress, which arbitrarily decides armor piercing abilities based off metal content, is inconsistent with the ATF's mission to protect the lives of police officers. Therefore they will use their extraordinary powers granted by the GCA and LEOPA to do an endrun around Congress and the law and designate ANY CARTRIDGE as armor-piercing.
Read the PDF. Read the PDF.
Read the PDF.
They have signed themselves a blank check with this memorandum and have granted themselves power to act outside of the law and they state it in plain English.
M855 is JUST THE BEGINNING.
stonecutter2
Member
What technically makes Ammunition AP Ammo?
The ATF.
The ATF.
Arizona_Mike
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On a side note, hso's picture explains why military rifles have 1:7 twist (to stabilize the M856 tracer) and why it is counter productive in civilian guns (unless you want to shoot bullets well over an inch long).
Mike
Mike
tark
Member
I may be wrong (a common thing) but I believe California declares any bullet with anything other than lead or copper anywhere in its construction is "armor piercing".
I know my friend told me not to bring any green tipped Nato ammo (5.56mm) into the state because it was considered AP. He also warned me that a California State Trooper, along with a Sheriff"s Deputy were seen at the local gun range. They were in plain clothes and they carried magnets, to see if any bullets stuck to them. A couple of Tokarev shooters were busted. Almost all of the surplus 7.62X25 has a steel jacket under the Copper Jacket.
They were let off with warnings and they lost their ammo. They were lucky.
I know my friend told me not to bring any green tipped Nato ammo (5.56mm) into the state because it was considered AP. He also warned me that a California State Trooper, along with a Sheriff"s Deputy were seen at the local gun range. They were in plain clothes and they carried magnets, to see if any bullets stuck to them. A couple of Tokarev shooters were busted. Almost all of the surplus 7.62X25 has a steel jacket under the Copper Jacket.
They were let off with warnings and they lost their ammo. They were lucky.
W.E.G.
Member
There is what makes something AP in technical terms (typically means a rifle bullet with some sort of hard metal penetrator). In general terms, we have to know what type of armor we are talking about piercing as any rifle ammo will penetrate any LE level IIIA soft armor vest no matter the bullet construction.
Then, there is the law, the writing of which probably has little to do with technical reality. Then there is a bureaucracy's interpretation of said law...and that is where we are now with M855.
Then, there is the law, the writing of which probably has little to do with technical reality. Then there is a bureaucracy's interpretation of said law...and that is where we are now with M855.
MachIVshooter
Member
W.E.G.-
What in sam tarnation is that list? A joke, I presume?
That doesn't conform to 18 USC, NIJ, PASGT or any other standard, and certainly doesn't stand up to logic.
NIJ ratings are 1-4, and all centerfire bottleneck rifle cartridges will defeat I-IIIa. And even your average idiot can tell from a visual comparison of the cartridges that 7.62x39>9mm and .30-06>7.62x39.
Also, who came up with a 150 gr. 7.62x39 load? 57-N-231 bi-metal M43 ball is 123 gr. And a 150 @ >3K FPS from the x39? Not unless you're using a 30" pressure barrel and duplex load with pistol powder.
ETA:
Here is the unabridged version of that list. Seems that some anti gunner contorted the one you posted severely:
http://www.nationwidestructures.com/ballistic-key.html
And for the record, that chart has nothing to do with armor piercing ammunition. It applies to bullet resistant materials other than actual armor plate, and does not even quantify results with actual AP ammo. There are also different thicknesses tested with the different rounds:
http://armorcore.com/downloads/Armorcore_UL752_Specs_Para.pdf
What in sam tarnation is that list? A joke, I presume?
That doesn't conform to 18 USC, NIJ, PASGT or any other standard, and certainly doesn't stand up to logic.
NIJ ratings are 1-4, and all centerfire bottleneck rifle cartridges will defeat I-IIIa. And even your average idiot can tell from a visual comparison of the cartridges that 7.62x39>9mm and .30-06>7.62x39.
Also, who came up with a 150 gr. 7.62x39 load? 57-N-231 bi-metal M43 ball is 123 gr. And a 150 @ >3K FPS from the x39? Not unless you're using a 30" pressure barrel and duplex load with pistol powder.
ETA:
Here is the unabridged version of that list. Seems that some anti gunner contorted the one you posted severely:
http://www.nationwidestructures.com/ballistic-key.html
And for the record, that chart has nothing to do with armor piercing ammunition. It applies to bullet resistant materials other than actual armor plate, and does not even quantify results with actual AP ammo. There are also different thicknesses tested with the different rounds:
http://armorcore.com/downloads/Armorcore_UL752_Specs_Para.pdf
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Surculus
Member
Well, it stated at the top that it's UL 752 [Underwriter's Laboratories sompin sumpin...], so it's clearly some sort of list of rating to what level a type of construction is considered "bullet resistant."
UL is usually concerned with rating appliances for their [lack of] likelihood to create house fires, so it would seem to be something related to getting home insurance?
Yeah, not really pertinent to the discussion at hand, as you pointed out!
Surculus
Member
CA's law actually specifies intent:
"Armor-Piercing Bullets
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, sell, or knowingly possess or transport handgun
ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor. (Penal Code §§ 12320, 12321.)
Handgun ammunition means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other
firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles. (Penal Code § 12323(a).)
Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor means any ammunition,
except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily
to penetrate a body vest or body shield. (Penal Code § 12323(b).)
Body vest or shield means any bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer or holder. (Penal Code § 12323(c).)
Exceptions
The prohibition against possessing, manufacturing, etc., armor piercing ammunition does
not apply to the following (Penal Code § 12322):
• Specified members of the military while on duty and engaged within the scope of
their duties.
• Any police agency or forensic laboratory.
• Persons who hold valid permits issued pursuant to Penal Code section 12305.
• The possession of handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or
armor by a person who found the ammunition, if he or she is not prohibited from
possessing firearms or ammunition pursuant to section 12021, 12021.1 or paragraph
(1) of subdivision (b) of section 12316 of this code or section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code and is transporting the ammunition to a law
enforcement agency for disposition according to law."
So, since .223 Remington/5.56 NATO is "primarily designed for use in a shotgun or rifle," it doesn't apply. But you can be sure that if the BATFE pulls off this fiasco, then the state DOJ here in the PRK will be sure to back them up to the hilt.
I suspect that
Just about any rifle bullet traveling around 3000fps will penetrate the "armor" that the average cop wears. In that case it could be called armor piercing. Also, I would suspect that any large caliber bullet like a .375 H&H and on up to a .458 Ackley would destroy just about anything behind this type of armor whether it penetrated it or not.
Just about any rifle bullet traveling around 3000fps will penetrate the "armor" that the average cop wears. In that case it could be called armor piercing. Also, I would suspect that any large caliber bullet like a .375 H&H and on up to a .458 Ackley would destroy just about anything behind this type of armor whether it penetrated it or not.
Speedo66
Member
"What technically makes Ammunition AP Ammo?"
The whim of a politician.
The whim of a politician.
Surculus
Member
Ah, yes. Very well put! :banghead:
No, this the decision of a bureaucrat.
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