What to Bring to Glacier National Park: S&W 460v or S&W 629?

[Evergreen]

I will be headed up to Glacier National Park soon and I am told the area is heavily populated with grizzly bears. Also, because it is a National Park I know that long guns are not allowed, but I can legally carry a handgun with me concealed in the Montana side of the park. I know using a handgun to defend myself against a grizzly bear will be futile and in all reality I pray never to be in that situation. I've only had moderate experience with big bore shooting and it would only be a last ditch effort. I will be carrying UDAP bear pepper spray as my main source of bear defense, but in the case where the bear makes it through the spray or the wind is just too strong, I would like to have the handgun as a backup. Mainly, I think shooting the gun, itself, rather than shooting the bear, would deter it from a charge or would probably help scare it away. Also, I know there are a lot of black bears/cougars in the park, which I would feel more confident about the use of a handgun for defense.

Anyway, I have a S&W m460v and a S&W 629. I will be carrying the gun in a chest holster I have from Simply Rugged. The 460v is a tank and weighs a good 5 or 6lbs loaded , although on the chest I am sure the weight will be more balanced. My 629 is a lot smaller and quite lightweight, for me at least. My 629 also is a 4" barrel and my 460v is a 5" barrel with a compensator. Considering, that I would probably use the gun to scare off a potential threatening bear versus try to stop it in its tracks, I am hearing a 460v has the potential to cause serious hearing damage without ear protection. I am wondering just how bad of hearing damage it can cause if I used it to fire a warning shot. I know the 44mag would not cause the type of hearing damage without ear protection as the 460 round. Also, I can handle the recoil of the 44mag better if I did need to use it, lets say against a black bear or a last ditch effort against a grizz. I do have 320gr hardcast Corbons loaded in my S&W 629, but I know that is more likely not a powerful enough round to stop a grizzly with my inferior shooting skills.

The weight is not an issue for me, as I am in good shape and a pretty hearty hiker.. Also, I will be doing day hikes, not a backpacking trip with a huge pack. So, an extra few pounds is not a problem. My main worry about the 460S&W is causing hearing damage if I end up having to use it either in defense or to fire a warning shot. I think carrying ear protection with me will be impractical. Especially, since while I am crapping in my pants, I will not probably think about putting it on.

Considering my situation, what would other people here think be the better option as a bear gun/defense weapon in Glacier? I will also be packing my S&W M&P 9 with me on my hip for personal defense. However, my 9mm HP rounds I would not want to use against wild animals. That would be for 2-legged predator defense.

I know it's unlikely I will have any problems in the park, but I am just trying to take some precautions. Maybe, I would be best not even to bring the big gun with me, extra weight, right? I know bear spray will be my best defense in almost any situation there..

 

[jmr40]

Of the 2, the 629. Odds are slim to none you'd ever need it and if you did you would be 10X more likely to need something to protect yourself from 2 legged predators. If I were hunting and looking to shoot a bear I might feel different, but would rather carry a rifle if hunting.

 

[Snowbandit]

If you find yourself having to use either gun in a defensive situation, regardless of the adversary, hearing loss will be the last of your considerations. You claim moderate experience with big bore shooting and, from the rest of your post, I surmise little to no experience with dangerous animals. Trying to frighten a grizzly bear off, one who has determined you're either a threat or a party favor, with a loud noise is hopeless. You might have slightly better luck with that tactic on a black bear but the odds wouldn't be in your favor there either. Besides, while carrying a handgun in the park is now legal, shooting one is a serious offense and that would certainly extend to warning shots.

The .44 Magnum has been used successfully against bears for many years. I think the best advise anyone could give you is to practice with it until you are both proficient and confident in your ability to hit something with it under extreme stress. As it is right now, with your obvious lack of confidence and admitted lack of proficiency, you would be better off with an air horn because it makes more noise. Learn the .44 well before moving on to something bigger.

 

[montanaoffroader]

The 629 is plenty of gun for hiking around Glacier. Chances are you won't even see a grizzly, and if even if you do you probably won't need to shoot it.

I've been hiking and hunting all over this part of the country for many years and haven't had to shoot at a bear yet. Had few tense moments, but so far I've been lucky.

My usual for around here is either a Colt .357 or a Super Blackhawk .44 in a regular hip holster. Pretty common, lots of people here pack a little something when out on the trail.

Enjoy your trip, northern MT is good place to visit, especially if you like the outdoors.

 

[dholla]

In a fight or flight situation, you probably wont "hear" the shot. There have been plenty of material written on how people perceive things in a "combat" situation. A lot of police officers and military have said they never heard the gun fire, just remember the slide action and seeing the case fly in slow motion. (with an auto loader) I'd be worried about me getting out alive. They have hearing aids, they still cant bring ya back after a grizzly mauling.

 

[Evergreen]

Thanks for responses, a lot of good information here.

Snowbandit.. Well, I have had quite a bit of experience with wild animals actually. I lived on the Oregon coast for 4 years and use to hike alone in a very wilderness areas. I had run-ins with about 4 or 5 black bears, including the one that lived in my backyard who use to eat the compost I threw out there. Anyway, almost every run-in I had with a black bear, the bear would run anyway. However one time a bear decided to track me on a trail after I surprised it and it jumped into a bush. It followed me for a 0.25 mile which was very nervewracking at sunset. Each minute felt like an hour. I tried hiking away form it, but it was fast and kept following me. So, I turned around , took out my pepper spray and start waving my arms and jumping and screaming and the bear took off so fast I could hear the plants rustle half a mile away.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion with black bears you put up a good fighting stance , make noise and let them know you are not afraid.

I have ZERO experience with grizzly bears. So, yeah I'm bit nervous. I also had a run-in with a cougar. I know with cougars it is a lost cause. If they see you before you see them, you might be lunch. I haven't heard much about cougar attacks. Also, I have zero experience with wolves, but I am yet to hear about a wolf attack.

Anyway, I have heard of many cases of grizzly bears being scared off by the blast of a gun. Also, I am proficient enough to shoot a bear at 10 yards.. Even the world's best pistol shooter may crap his pants when a 1000lb bear is charging him head on. There isn't much of a guarantee about life when a giant bear is charging right at you.

I'm hoping I get to see a grizzly bear from my car while driving to the trail. I sure hope I don't see one on a trail. The last thing I want to do is have a confrontation, especially with bohemeth.

Also, Snowbandit, where did you hear it was against the law to shoot a grizzly bear in self-defense? I have read that a self-defense shooting is perfectly legal, even in the parks. The state/federal laws supersede the laws of the Park, in a self-defense situation. That is what I am told. I wouldn't think they could penalize you for shooting and missing, or even wounding and killing a vicious bear that is threatening you or someone else's life. I would like a legitimate source to such a claim.

Even if I die in Glacier NP, I will be happy, because I got to see such a magnificent place. I have not had a vacation in 6 years, so I have been waiting a long time for this. I made reservations just a month before going.. I'm lucky I even found a place under $80.

Anyway, I want to have a good time and get lots of pics. I just prepare for the worst, but always pray and know that it will never come to that. However, better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

Like I said, Bear Spray is my #1 defense for bears and cats.

MontanaOffRoader, you're a lucky guy, living in one of the most beautiful states. I'm from Oregon, but I think after going to Montana, I may not want to leave. I am also going to be spending time in the Bitterroot Valley, in addition to my trip to Idaho.

 

[gotboostvr]

Bear spray for people and bears. But nothing wrong with carrying too.

 

[22-rimfire]

IF you are going to be camping or hiking, take your 629 and some bear spray. Otherwise, you don't need anything for bears.

 

[RalphS]

I would try carrying the 629 and bear spray. If you find that the 629 was so light that you didn't notice it, then the next time you might try the 460.

Remember that the gun has to stay concealed in the National Parks. You will encounter more people than bears and most of them will freak out if they see your gun. The people who visit National Parks are not the same crowd that might be found hiking the National Forests or Wilderness Areas. Some of them think they are in a petting zoo.

My national parks CCW is a 4 inch Redhawk riding high in a DeSantis pancake style hip holster. With a long shirt on, this is easy to conceal.

When I hiked in Yellowstone a few years ago, I only had bear spray. Saw lots of other hikers, even on the backcountry trails, lots of bison, one wolf at a distance, a few moose at a distance and that was about it.

I did go to the grizzly bear zoo in West Yellowstone. Funny thing is, all the bears there came from Alaska.

 

[Warp]

Remember that the gun has to stay concealed in the National Parks

According to...?

 

[RalphS]

According to whatever state law the NP is in. Florida, for instance, doesn't allow open carry. I live 15 minutes from a National Wildlife Refuge (part of the Everglades). I can carry there now but not openly.

If that isn't weird enough, in Florida, you can legally open carry while fishing, hunting, camping or on the way to fishing, hunting, camping or going to a shooting range. So, legally, you could walk in the Everglades with a fishing pole in your hand and open carry a gun on your hip. The problem is that most cops don't know this law and they will arrest you anyways and let the judge sort it out.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Bring your 629 and a childlike sense of wonder.
Glacier is amazing.

I think a handgun is just a waste of time with Mr. Griz, so I recommend you take the lightest one that makes you feel good.

 

[RalphS]

I just checked and Montana is indeed an open carry state so you should be able to open carry in Glacier. I'd be real interested in hearing from anyone who has open carried in Glacier or Yellowstone and what the reaction was from the NPS.

I know that the NPS is really against guns in parks but in light of the recent bear attack in Yellowstone that killed a hiker and the bear attack in the Gallatin National Forest last year that killed a camper and injured two others, I think the NPS might just leave us alone.

I will probably just wear my 4 inch Redhawk concealed under a long shirt the next time I'm hiking in Montana but it would be nice to know whether the NPS would hassle me or not.

 

[Warp]

According to whatever state law the NP is in. Florida, for instance, doesn't allow open carry. I live 15 minutes from a National Wildlife Refuge (part of the Everglades). I can carry there now but not openly.

If that isn't weird enough, in Florida, you can legally open carry while fishing, hunting, camping or on the way to fishing, hunting, camping or going to a shooting range. So, legally, you could walk in the Everglades with a fishing pole in your hand and open carry a gun on your hip. The problem is that most cops don't know this law and they will arrest you anyways and let the judge sort it out.

Glacier isn't in Florida, and most states allow licensed carriers to carry openly. Including the state Glacier is in.

That fishing/hunting thing has always been FUBAR.

 

[jmr40]

Carry is legal in NP's now. Assuming you are legal to carry in that state and you obey all other laws. The only quirk is that while you can carry in the park itself, you cannot carry into any federal building. That means that you must leave it outside if you enter any federal building within the park. Which is all of them.

 

[Shadow 7D]

KNOWLEDGE

TRAINING

PARANOIA

BEAR SPRAY



In that order, Backpacker and Alaska F&G have good pages about avoiding bears.

The last thing you really want is a pistol, as you have to hit a basket ball being dribbled down the court at 30MPH.... and your dead if you miss...

Yeah, I think I'll go with the 'Cone Of Pain', and when you are done, you don't get a proctology exam from the feds and F&G for killing an endangered species. In Alaska you have to take the head, skin and paws (basically trophy parts) which are heavy, and VERY stinky to F&G, and NO you don't get to keep them, they get auctioned off and the money goes to hunter education.

 

[armoredman]

That means that you must leave it outside if you enter any federal building within the park. Which is all of them.

Except for restrooms, that was clarified, IIRC.
Carry in a national Park or Monument is what the host state allows. For instance, if I wish to open carry a rifle into Grand Canyon, I can do so per law. If your state allows carry of loaded handguns only, concealed only, with permit only, then that's how you carry in the Park or Monument, according to the way I read the law. However, i am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
I will say if I am carrying into a place where griz or other bear is frequently sighted, a solid shotgun with slugs might be a really good idea.

 

[dawei]

I will be headed up to Glacier National Park soon and I am told the area is heavily populated with grizzly bears. Also, because it is a National Park I know that long guns are not allowed, but I can legally carry a handgun with me concealed in the Montana side of the park. I know using a handgun to defend myself against a grizzly bear will be futile and in all reality I pray never to be in that situation. I've only had moderate experience with big bore shooting and it would only be a last ditch effort. I will be carrying UDAP bear pepper spray as my main source of bear defense, but in the case where the bear makes it through the spray or the wind is just too strong, I would like to have the handgun as a backup. Mainly, I think shooting the gun, itself, rather than shooting the bear, would deter it from a charge or would probably help scare it away. Also, I know there are a lot of black bears/cougars in the park, which I would feel more confident about the use of a handgun for defense.

Anyway, I have a S&W m460v and a S&W 629. I will be carrying the gun in a chest holster I have from Simply Rugged. The 460v is a tank and weighs a good 5 or 6lbs loaded , although on the chest I am sure the weight will be more balanced. My 629 is a lot smaller and quite lightweight, for me at least. My 629 also is a 4" barrel and my 460v is a 5" barrel with a compensator. Considering, that I would probably use the gun to scare off a potential threatening bear versus try to stop it in its tracks, I am hearing a 460v has the potential to cause serious hearing damage without ear protection. I am wondering just how bad of hearing damage it can cause if I used it to fire a warning shot. I know the 44mag would not cause the type of hearing damage without ear protection as the 460 round. Also, I can handle the recoil of the 44mag better if I did need to use it, lets say against a black bear or a last ditch effort against a grizz. I do have 320gr hardcast Corbons loaded in my S&W 629, but I know that is more likely not a powerful enough round to stop a grizzly with my inferior shooting skills.

The weight is not an issue for me, as I am in good shape and a pretty hearty hiker.. Also, I will be doing day hikes, not a backpacking trip with a huge pack. So, an extra few pounds is not a problem. My main worry about the 460S&W is causing hearing damage if I end up having to use it either in defense or to fire a warning shot. I think carrying ear protection with me will be impractical. Especially, since while I am crapping in my pants, I will not probably think about putting it on.

Considering my situation, what would other people here think be the better option as a bear gun/defense weapon in Glacier? I will also be packing my S&W M&P 9 with me on my hip for personal defense. However, my 9mm HP rounds I would not want to use against wild animals. That would be for 2-legged predator defense.

I know it's unlikely I will have any problems in the park, but I am just trying to take some precautions. Maybe, I would be best not even to bring the big gun with me, extra weight, right? I know bear spray will be my best defense in almost any situation there..

I can only relate based upon my personal experience; and observations.....
• The only thing predictable about bears is they are unpredictable.
• Absolutely carry Bear Spray.
• Carry the handgun you shoot the best.
• Warning Shots are a waste of time; and, a waste of ammunition!

 

[Evergreen]

Great responses.. I will take the S&W 629.. If nothing more if will be good for defense against Cougars and Black Bears, which there will be plenty on my journey, which will not only include Glacier NP.. Glacier will be the only place I may have to deal with Grizzly Bears.

I really don't think I would want to open carry in the park, unless I see lots of other people doing it. From what I am told by the Park service in Glacier, you have to conceal your gun. I am thinking, whether or not it is legal, they may throw me out of the park if they see me with an open -carried handgun and ruin my vacation. I am not going all the way out there to promote my open carry rights. I can do that at another time. So, I think I will keep the gun concealed. However, when I am up in the Sawtooth Mountains, I may consider open carrying there, although I am still not sure about the atmosphere. I assume Idaho is an open carry state. I know Oregon is, outside of Portland.

Bear spray will be my main defense. I am thinking if I should get a chest holster for the bear spray, but I will be carrying my S&W 629 on my chest and my S&W M&P 9mm on my hip.

Anyone think I would be better carrying my .45 with FMJ, rather than 9mm with HP for defense against cougars and wolves? The places I will be going there will be quite a bit of these and I am not just talking about Glacier. I am thinking I want something for 2-legged predator defense, and my 9mm with HP would be the best for that. Most likely if I am jumped by a cat I am dead anyway. Although I can still resort to the 44 mag for cat/wolf defense, but rather have a gun I could shoot easier under stress.

 

[Gordon]

When last in Glacier about 5 years ago (I been there half a dozen excursion over the years) I carried a 629 with 300 grain Hornadys I believe. I know the model 29 from 40 years of using it. I carried a 6.5" one on a belt. I also had a 4" Mountain Revolver with me. I do have a .454 available but it is over the top in recoil and quick reloading. I am sure that a 300 grain .44 Mag is quite good medicine for the bears south of Alaska infact a good 275 grain Nosler would be about perfect. I have some 320 WLFP loads that will really put the hurt on something, but anything over the factory .44 mags is a little too much in recoil to deliver nice multiple hits on target quickly. Kinda like why a .45acp is about optimum in a pistol against humans, you have to balance the control ability with the power factor. Gratuitous picture of rigs.

 

[Snowbandit]

Evergreen, Sorry if I wasn't clear. Carrying a handgun in the parks is now legal but shooting one remains illegal. Shooting in a truly defensive situation would be considered a justified exception to the otherwise illegal act of shooting a gun in the park. Same as most cities where the discharge of firearms is illegal but an exception is usually made for truly justified defensive shootings. The issue was warnings shots and those would never be considered justified in a city and likely prosecuted in the park as well.

 

[Evergreen]

Nice setup Gordon.. Perhaps I should carry both my S&W 460v and S&W 629.. I am thinking I would go for a lighter, yet effective .454 round with my 460.. The recoil really isn't bad on my gun, because of the compensator.. Noise is the main problem.

Snowbandit, thanks for making yourself more clear. I still don't believe you can be prosecuted for shooting at a vicious bear that is threatening to harm you or someone else. Although, I don't want to find out in a court of law. Although, I would be judged by a Montanan court, which may give me some advantages. I think a case against a vicious grizzly bear would have different circumstances than a vicious human.

However, if I was facing a vicious bear, I'd probably want to use another noise making device to scare him away. However, if it happens as fast as the one bear encounter I had, where in a split second I saw the bear jump into the bush, I may just grab what I have on me.

Anybody, who think warning shots are a waste of ammo, probably doesn't realize how fast a bear will be on you thumping you. Really, do you think at 20, or even 30 yards, I have time to unload 6 rounds of 44mag into a bear? 1, 2, maybe 3 shots at the most. If there is a 50/50 chance the bear will run after warning shot, it may be worth taking.

 

[dtvburns]

I agree with everyone else 629, with one difference, smear bacon grease all over it so when you are done shooting it at the bear drop it and run. If you are lucky he will stop to lick it and you will get away.

 

[jad0110]

I do have 320gr hardcast Corbons loaded in my S&W 629, but I know that is more likely not a powerful enough round to stop a grizzly with my inferior shooting skills.

Neither would a .460. Both rely on solid placement to stop a charging bear, crackhead, whatever. Plenty of penetration is what is necessary for a tough, cranky bear. And either the .44, .460, .454 etc will do that with the right load selection. The a HC Keith semi wadcutter, or they aforementioned Nolser Partition would both be excellent choices in any caliber. IMO, even a .357 Magnum would work fine with such projectiles (158 grain and up).

Good plan though on taking bear spray as the primary defense, though you are right it does have limitations (wind in your face being an obvious one). I'd spend a lot of time studying up on brown/grizzly habitats, how to spot evidence of the precense, etc and try to avoid or minimize time spent in areas with high griz activity.

 

[Dogguy]

Take a 9mm or .45ACP for what would be the most likely threat--human predators. Take some of that super-duper pepper spray for the bears. And be aware of the possibility of danger from both humans and bears while you're enjoying the area.