Will Buffalo Bore 340 gr +P+ Hurt my New Ruger Redhawk 44?

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Nice post Waldo.. So your opinion then is that a Dan Wesson 44 can handle even hotter and heavier loads than the Ruger Redhawk 44? With all that being said, do you think that my Ruger Redhawk can handle the Buff Bore 340 +P+ loads?

As for my S&W 629, it is up for sale now..
 
I would think that the BB loads would be within max SAMII spec for 44 and if so yes. Remember these mfg's kind of watch pushing the limits for legal reasons. Or at least I would think so, but I am not sure as I don't buy factory ammo except for my 380 pocket gun and very little of that thanks to price.

That said I would not give it a steady diet of this stuff for range plinking, just enough to know how it shoots and feels. Then just carry to shoot when needed on a hunt or protection. I don't range plink with any hot loads other then to see how it shoots, for range duty I used light loads to save on wear and tear of gun and me.
 
The DW is in the load class is the ruger red hawk and freedom and they say the newest sw29. But i would not be willing to try that one out. AL of them can be blown up. just go scroll around youtub and you can atleast find a couple rugers blow apart. Rugers ain't super duty just tougher than old sw and other cheaper revolvers. Nut for the price of a freedom, Ain't got any enterest. DW have won more than there share of long range match's. There is one dw 15-2 on youtub that had 2 squib loads shot followed by a good load and it still did not blow up. It did bulge the barrel baddly. Changed barrels out and still good shoot.
 
I had a squib for first time in one of my DW 22 last spring and removed barrel at the range and took pistol cleaning rod and got it out. I put the barrel back on and trucked on shooting.

Had one about a week later in my Mossberg 142A and pushed it out with cleaning rod, this time I tossed the rest of the brick.

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hardluk1 said:
just go scroll around youtub and you can atleast find a couple rugers blow apart.
Are you sure this is from shooting loads like the Buffalo Bore and not from stupid people shooting improperly made handloads? Buffalo Bore on their website says that the Ruger Redhawk is safe to use with this round. Since they are assuring people the round is compatible with the gun, I think as others have said that they do have some liability issues. That said, I would certainly not go plinking with this round, but I would like a little more reasoning behind why you think it is risky to use this load in a Redhawk. There are plenty of videos of lots of guns blowing up, as people can do a lot of stupid things with any gun. I know a Ruger isn't a S&W 460, but what I like to know is what is its limits. A 44Mag +P+ is a hot load, but is this really beyond its limits?
 
This line of thought never made sense to me. The .44Mag was "designed for" (whatever that means) a 240gr at 1500fps. Should we have just stopped there? Does that mean that nothing beyond a 240@1500fps should be used because it was not "designed for" a 330gr at 1350fps or 355gr at 1250fps, even though pressure levels are within SAAMI specs? Nonsense. What a firearm/cartridge is "designed for" is immaterial if it is capable of much more. It's a glass ceiling.

Staying within pressure specs with different loads is not my argument. The OP mentions a +P+ load so we are not talking about anything in SAAMI spec. I have no problem with experimenting with loads and staying in spec.

It most certainly is a glass ceiling which can be broken. Elmer Keith often related stories about the guns he destroyed by pushing them to the limit.

If I "needed" to use a .44 Mag revolver to hunt medium-sized game... the heaviest hard-cast semi-wadcutter bullet I can get (320gr ++) with enough power behind it to make a real mess.

Was the .44 Mag "designed" for any of the above scenarios? No.

ETA: (for clarity) I'll use whatever load a firearm is capable of handling to suit whatever need I have regardless of what the gun was "designed" for.


Mike I was referring to pressure levels not bullet weights and charges you speak of which make sense. How hard would you push that 320 gr bullet 40,000 psi? 50,000 psi? More?
 
GRIZ22... I wasn't directing my post at anyone. I was only agreeing with those who stated that we shouldn't limit ourselves to original design specs. We're all on the same page.:)
 
GRIZZ22 said:
It most certainly is a glass ceiling which can be broken. Elmer Keith often related stories about the guns he destroyed by pushing them to the limit.
So Grizz, what is your opinion then about my question? Should I avoid using the 340gr +P+ loads altogether or would shooting a few of them and keeping it for outdoor defense be alright? I have no problem downgrading to the 320gr hardcast loads, like the Corbon Hunter. I know I am probably going a bit over the top with the 340gr +P+, but I figured if it didn't do any harm to my gun, then I would have no problem shooting it. However, if there is any risk of damaging the gun or wearing it out too soon, then I would want to totally avoid using the round. I would be happy plinking and carrying the 320gr loads. I guess, I was thinking the thicker frame of the Ruger could handle it and the recoil wouldn't be so bad with my Pachmayr grips. I actually don't find the recoil of the .460 or .454 to be so bad either. Some people are recoil drama queens IMO. I just focus on where the bullet is suppose to go and don't mind the little beating to my hand.

Who knows maybe after firing some of the .44Mag +P+ rounds I will hate it so much I will put the remaining rounds for sale, but if I find them manageable, my only concern will be if the round is causing damage to my gun.
 
I have never seen any evidence, or heard any authority on this subject rate the Dan Wesson as stronger than the big Ruger DA's. If the Rugers can be loaded to 50-55,000psi, there is nowhere else to go.

The Buffalo Bore 340gr load was "designed for" Redhawks and Super Redhawks. It is even safe for Super Blackhawks which are considered to be a good 10,000psi weaker than the DA's. Believe me, you won't want to shoot enough of them for it to ever become an issue anyway. Tim Sundles knows what he's doing. Which is one reason why they're loaded too long for S&W cylinders.
 
So Grizz, what is your opinion then about my question? Should I avoid using the 340gr +P+ loads altogether or would shooting a few of them and keeping it for outdoor defense be alright?

If their were a lot of people blowing up their guns with the Buffalo Bore load they wouldn't be selling it. The Redhawk is a very strong gun. Mine is over 25 years old and at an average of a couple boxes a month (magnum LSWC loads) it shows no signs of wear after about 25,000 rds with no problems.

I'm just not a fan of +P+ in anything I'm not sure of what the pressure is as the only limit is what the manufacturer can get away with without destroying guns.

That said I'd probably take the 460 or look for a non +P load for the 44 with a heavy bullet.

One of my concerns is controlability as I stated. If you're shooting that bear the pucker factor is going to be up there and shot placement is not going to be easy. How well do you shoot the 460 double action? The 44 with 240 gr loads? That's what you'll be doing to stop that bear if he's close and to me a good indicator if you should be considering that BB load at all. It gives you about 25% more foot lbs of energy but at what cost of controlability?

Believe me, you won't want to shoot enough of them for it to ever become an issue anyway.

An unsolicited endorsement for the controlability issue.

If I were in the same situation I'd load a 300+ gr bullet to sensible pressures for my Redhawk...and take a shotgun with full power slugs.
 
You have some very sound advice Grizz.. I will see how well I can control the Buff Bore rounds. I can put holes on paper at 10 yards with my .460. Considering I only shot one box of .460 Buff Bore through it and a few lighter loads, I would say that is good for now. I am far from being a proficient big bore shooter.

Actually, I found my 320gr Corbons were much easier on my hands then the 240gr Fiocchis I was shooting, which were much snappier.

I am proficient enough with my S&W 629 to put all my holes center mass at 10 yards. As far as grouping, I am not that great. Once again, I'd never really want to rely on a handgun for bear defense, it is just a last ditch effort. I figure if I ever bothered to shoot a bear I would wait until it is very close. I dare not waste that precious round.

If I were in the same situation I'd load a 300+ gr bullet to sensible pressures for my Redhawk...and take a shotgun with full power slugs.

Can I bring a shotgun with full power slugs to Glacier National Park with me? If I could open carry a shotgun, that would be my first weapon of choice.
 
I have never seen or heard of a cylinder blowing out on a DW an sometimes wonder if they are just built so so strong...or if we owners of DW's are more sensible with our Dan's. Over the last 40 years of my reloading and shooting I've seen S&W's with cylinders or barrels blown out, also Rugers, Taurus, and Colt's, but never a Dan Wesson.

Some years ago I bought a DW 357 M-15 with a bulged barrel that was stuck in frame and shroud. Took me about 4 hours to get the thing apart. The frame and cylinder were like new so I bought a new barrel and screw it into frame put the old shroud back on and went to the range with some of my reloads and gun shot like a champ and I still have it. That's it below.

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An unsolicited endorsement for the controlability issue.
Not in the least, that's related to physical pain and economics, not controllability. It takes a lot of practice to become proficient with these loads and those in question are VERY expensive. Redhawks are uncomfortable enough with standard loads. I will only shoot loads at that level out of a custom Bisley with proper grips.

Do you really think a .460 with a bear-capable load is going to be more controllable than anything you can feed a .44Mag???
 
Tim at Buffalo Bore

I purchased the Buffalo Bore 305 gr LBT LFN for my Ruger Alaskan snub. Tim in an email said that this load will kill a Grizzly even out of my snub. He said I should get 1150 fps from this 2.5 inch bbl. It won't hurt my Alaskan either. My round is a std pressure 44 mag round. I don't know why you would go with a +P+. The round that I am talking about here is probably a bit overkill as it is. Just my opinion.
 
evergreen NO it was not BB or any other factory load . Some home brewed junk. DW were always in class with ruger and freedom arms. There is not a factory load out that you can't shoot in a dw limited only by cylinder lenght. As Waldo can attest to , just simplely strong revolvers.
 
There is more to revolver durability than just max pressure. I actually broke my First GP-100 shooting loads that did not stick in the chambers. With all that steel, what broke was the cylinder stop pin. You see, in addition to pressure, there is also torque. Heavy bullets going fast have alot of torque despite staying inside the SAAMI max pressures. They exert more torque on the frame and the cylider, the hand (in case you have a Python) and the cylinder stop.
 
Can I bring a shotgun with full power slugs to Glacier National Park with me? If I could open carry a shotgun, that would be my first weapon of choice.

I would say yes as:

(b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if-- (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

(2) states you have to be in compliance with state laws and in Alaska you can OC or CC anything with some of the usual exceptions. also not in buildings on the park where park employees usually work.

You can call them to be sure.
 
Quote:
An unsolicited endorsement for the controlability issue.

Not in the least, that's related to physical pain and economics, not controllability. It takes a lot of practice to become proficient with these loads and those in question are VERY expensive.


I can imagine that that rhino roller round hurts to shoot. Most people would think pain equals distraction equals affecting control.

Redhawks are uncomfortable enough with standard loads. I will only shoot loads at that level out of a custom Bisley with proper grips.

I seem to do fine with Pachmyrs on my Redhawk with standard loads. To each his own

Do you really think a .460 with a bear-capable load is going to be more controllable than anything you can feed a .44Mag???

Don't put words in my mouth. If the OP can't control the 460 with standard pressure loads then controlling the 44 with the BB load would be even worse. My point is the 460 with a bear capable 460 load or even a 454 Casull load (both of which offer standard pressure ammo with ballistics superior to the BB +P+ load) might be a better choice. The 460's gun weight of about 70 oz vs the 50 oz or so of the Redhawk would enhance control. if i had more gun I'd consider using it.

Control in this issue is not "I'll shoot a super rhino roller round to impress my friends". Its a SD issue where you need to use the heaviest round you can handle. I have never done it but I'm pretty sure hitting a charging brown bear is fairly difficult and shot placement will be difficult. Having a fairly quick recovery time is essential so you can put enough lead into the target to stop it. I wouldn't count on anything short of a howitzer to stop a grizzly with one round.
 
^^^ Lessened recoil and quicker recovery time is why I bought a Raging Bull .44 Mag. Some claim it isn't nearly as strong as a Super Redhawk but, so far, all I've read is hearsay from folks who don't own one. Others claim the moving parts won't hold up to high power loads but anyone who actually owns one and shoots the heavy loads have had no issues... that I've found anyway.

Bottom line is, from what I've read and after filtering out unsubstantiated garble, the Raging Bull and Super Redhawk should handle the hefty BB loads just fine. As with any firearm I wouldn't push their limits every day though. Why risk it for no good reason?
 
It didn't hurt my Redhawk. :)

I was glad to see Buffalo Bore extend the versatility of the .44 Mag. That ammo moves the performance of my 5.5" Redhawk to the lower edge of the .454 Casull. It was comforting to have on my hiking trip in the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness of Montana.

The recoil is quite manageable, at least to me. I bought a couple of boxes of it.

The ammo with the large bullet just under the shoulder holster is the 340gr Buffalo Bore .44 Mag, next to a 240gr round.

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The ammo won't hurt the Redhawk, but it might hurt your hand a little. I would recommend double hearing protection, too (plugs + muffs.) The Redhawk is an excellent revolver, and I'm sure the ammo you're considering will perform well, too.

Last year I went through the load development process to develop a .44 mag bear (both blackies and grizz)defense load. Using a few different assumptions and a little different POV, I arrived at a different solution.

I'm sure the the solution which you arrived it is a good one, and I'm confident that you have good reasons for choosing the load that you did. But just in case you might find it interesting or you might want to investigate my approach at some time in the future, I'd like to share it with you.

I've never shot a bear with a 44. mag revolver, but I have seen several large black bears dispatched with one. I claim no special knowledge or expertise. It seems that most shooters who research this topic end up choosing a max load with a flat nose hard cast bullet weighing 300 gr or more. Such loads have been used successfully with the largest animals in Alaska for decades.

In the process of researching hard cast bullets, I read some of Marshall Stanton's Tech Notes on his Beartooth Bullets website. He is among the original developers and advocates of heavy hard cast bullets with a wide meplat for hunting. He and some of his customers have done a lot of research on the relative importance of bullet weight, bullet hardness, meplat diameter, and velocity. The results of his research is contained in 3 charts in his first "Tech Note" on his website. I'm not a big believer in using charts and formulas to select ammo or bullets, but over the years the experience of Mr Stanton and his customers has pretty well verified the information in his charts.

I've decided to keep my 629 because I like it. Due to recurring problems with arthritis, I need to use a load which produces less recoil than the BB+p+ load. Mr. Stanton is an advocate of heavy hard cast bullets with a wide meplat for shooting big game with a revolver. But he believes that we have been oversold on the need for the heaviest bullets using the heaviest powder charges. According to Stanton's research as shown in his charts, a 250 gr Keith style bullet with an impact velocity of 1100 fps will penetrate just as deeply as his 325 gr. LWFNGC at the same impact velocity because the meplat of the Keith bullet is not quite as wide as the meplat on his WFN bullets.

The lighter weight Keith bullet will generate less than 2/3 as much recoil as the 325 gr bullet. Since the Keith bullet has a smaller diameter meplat, it will produce a wound channel that is .1 " smaller in diameter, according to Mr Stanton. So according to him, his 250 gr Keith bullet will penetrate just as deeply as his 325 gr LWFN bullet while producing a wound channel that is 90% as wide in diameter as the channel produced by the heavier bullet at the same velocity. And the load with the lighter bullet will produce less than 65% as much recoil.

According to Mr Stanton, all of his .44 cal hard cast bullets from 250 gr through the heaviest are capable of penetrating all the way through a grizzly bear or a moose when fired from a revolver and have done so many times in the field. Undoubtedly, in some loads in some revolvers, the heaviest bullets will penetrate the deepest. But it's likely that a 280 gr or 300 gr bullet fired from a .44 mag can accomplish anything that a .44 is capable of accomplishing on animals found on the North American continent.

The 250 gr, 280 gr, and 300 gr bullets will penetrate all the way through a grizzly bear with enough remaining power to penetrate at least a foot (a guesstimate) into a tree behind the bear. The bullets heavier than 300 gr. will completely penetrate through the bear and will penetrate even more deeply into the tree behind it. According to Mr. Stanton, the 250 gr Keith bullet will penetrate just as deeply as most of the heavier bullets, but the wound channel will only be 90% as wide in diameter. Even at velocities of 1100 to 1200 fps, the bullets have penetration to spare.

Buffalo Bore engineers are aware of how this works, and BB sells a lower recoil load for use in S&W 329 revolvers which drives a 250 gr Keith style bullet at 1250 fps. I will probably settle on a 265 gr or a 280 gr bullet at the same velocity. The pressure will be within SAAMI recommendations; it will be safe to fire in my 629; it won't hurt my arthritic wrist as badly; and the compromise in performance will be minimal or almost unnoticeable.

If this info had originated from some promotional ad copy, I probably wouldn't trust it. But Marshall Stanton is one of the original developers and advocates of this type of bullet. He has been researching the performance of these bullets for decades, and he has become convinced that the need for the heaviest bullets at the highest velocities has been exaggerated and oversold. He is going to sell many tons of bullets whether he advocates the use of heavier or lighter bullets. I have no choice but to use a lighter bullet, but, at least for now, you do have a choice. I (along with Marshall Stanton) think that it's likely that I will be sacrificing a lot less performance than the advocates of the heaviest bullets realize.
 
The Redhawk vs. the 629

I think it's probably true that the cylinder and frame of the Redhawk is stronger and will withstand greater pressure than the 629. The 629 uses an antiquated design which is long overdue for an upgrade. But the strength of the 629 is not the limiting factor. If you were to set out to test heavier and heavier powder charges by progressing in small increments, you would reach a point where the empty cases would be difficult to extract long before you would threaten the structural integrity of either revolver. At that point you will have exceeded a safe operating pressure level.

The limitation of the 629 is not the lesser strength of its frame or cylinder. The 629 has a shorter cylinder and can't handle the heaviest or the longest bullets. The earlier 29's and 629's would often shoot loose after firing thousands of maximum pressure loads. (I've also seen Redhawks and Super Blackhawks shoot loose with max loads, but it usually takes a few more thousand rounds to do it.) Most of the 629's problems have been solved or greatly reduced in 629's produced after the mid 90's. But shooters should not fire ammo which exceeds SAAMI recommended pressure limits or OAL in a 629. Most of the time, that's probably good advice for most Redhawk shooters as well, at least IMO.

Using loads with pressures under SAAMI limits, a 629 can fire a 300 gr. hard cast bullet at a velocity of 1250 to 1300 fps. The bullet will penetrate completely through a grizzly bear or a bull moose and will continue to penetrate deeply into a tree behind him. Using loads which exceed recommended SAAMI limits, a Redhawk can propel a 340 gr. hard cast bullet at 1350 fps. It will penetrate completely through a grizzly bear or a bull moose and will penetrate several inches (perhaps nearly a foot!) deeper than the 300 gr bullet into the tree behind him. It's all good.

I believe you can likely get a little more performance from a Redhawk than from a 629. I also believe that Buffalo Bore sells ammunition that is safe when used according to their recommendations. Your Redhawk will probably work extremely well with the Buffalo Bore ammo. It will be a great combination. You have made an excellent choice. Enjoy.
 
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