My wife and I took a little trip to St. Louis on Friday and we had the chance to go to a rental range, so we could look at and shoot several different handguns. We are not new to shooting, but we do not shoot as much as we would like, who does?
Top Gun range was very nice and clean, and we tried the following: CZ 75B, M&P9c, Kimber 5" CDP in .45, Sig 226 in 40, Sig 229 in 9mm, a Glock 19, Beretta 92FS, and a HK MP5!!!! Earlier in the day we stopped by another store and looked at a HK P-30, but we did not get to do more than dry fire it.
Impressions:
M&P9c:
Originally this had been what I had thought we might get because of its size, a number of agencies switching to it, S&W's excellent customer service, and the features that it offers over Glock. Features such as the cool but not needed loaded chamber indicator, aka a hole drilled into the top of the chamber-which in truth, seems like a place where dust and lint could accumulate, and I doubt the ability to look into the chamber and see brass is as important as it is convenient. I also liked the fact that the S&W doesn't have finger grooves, which I really don't care for them on the Glock. The ability to change grips is another feature it may have over the Glock.
When I shot it it felt like just a gun, and really did not stand out to me. The grip if I remember correctly seemed a little squishy or spongy, and unfortunately, since it had a short grip frame my little finger wanted to curl underneath the mag well when reloading just like on a Glock 26. The two piece trigger is also a concern for me as I could see this part breaking, and while the excellent customer service provided by S&W and its many nice features makes me feel like the M&P is a smart choice, I am concerned about S&W's quality control far more than their ability to design an excellent gun. I realize everyone makes lemons and this is the age of the internet, but I am just not sure that I want to trust my family's lives and daughter's virginity to organized "it'll be okay labor". Even though I would like to own an American made gun, my grandfather did work for GM at one time.
CZ75B:
This also struck me as just a gun. I like it because it was made of metal, was high capacity, and could be carried cocked and locked but I did not care for the curved trigger which I actually found to be painful to the underside of my index finger. I get the impression these are not as trusted as the more common makers but I am not sure what I think of it. It did not malfunction while we fired it.
Beretta 92F:
This was my favorite of the bunch. I really liked the feel of the grip in my hand, the fact that it has a safety-although this is also a negative because the safety could accidentally be turned on, I like the post sights and like how I shoot with it. The downsides are that I believe this is a maintenance intensive gun: requiring more lubrication than some newer designs, more frequent changing of trigger return and recoil springs, and I recall reading somewhere that according to government tests the slide is thought to last about 35,000 rounds before cracking, and the frame may last 70,000 rounds. I also don't like that the new guns have plastic triggers, magazine release buttons, and recoil spring guide rods and maybe other parts. If I am going to carry a metal gun then I want to carry an all metal gun. The locking block breaking is also a concern for me. Another problem is that the gun we rented had several failures to feed when my wife shot it. The slide would stay open with the new bullet pointing at a very high angle. This did not happen with the rental gun for me but I think it has happened in the past when I shot other Berettas. My wife does not have this problem when she shoots other semi-auto handguns, so I think the problem is that since she has small hands, she cannot get enough of her hand around the back of gun to provide enough resistance. Although I am no expert, so what do I know? However my wife did like this gun as a soft shooter. But another negative is that it is a DA with a difficult first pull, although I actually think I did a nice job with shooting the first shot. The trigger may be a little far forward for lady shooters.
Kimber 5" .45 CDP:
I liked this gun. It was light weight, and I think I was able to shoot it well. However while I like .45, I don't like having practically half the rounds I would with a 9mm. I also did not like the rough front grip checkering which was very unpleasant after awhile. My wife doesn't care for the thumb safety because she is afraid she wouldn't remember to deactivate it and it is painful for her to shoot it with her thumb resting on it in what most people consider to be the correct way because it bumps into a sensitive joint area where her thumb connects to the rest of her hand. This Kimber felt rough on the thumb safety also, and after a time I was shooting like Massad Ayoob with my thumb curled tip down.
If I was going to buy and carry a 1911 though it would be a carbon or stainless steel version though-not alloy. I would also want to not have any rough checkering anywhere on the gun.
Sig 226 and 229:
These guns were okay and I actually kind of liked them. The trigger may be a little far forward for lady shooters, but I was okay with them. I have read about how Sig is cutting corners by having its parts produced in different countries and has stopped phosphating the internals of their pistols or magazines. This is sad to me because with all the strikes against Beretta, Sig would be my first choice with metal handguns and maybe even with rifles but the fact that they may not be living up to their reputation as a high end gun leads me to say no to a gun that would be a top choice otherwise.
Glock 19:
I view Glock as being the AK-47 of the handgun world. Tough, durable and reliable. Its ergonomics may leave a lot to be desired but if it needs to fire, I would trust it. My wife thinks I shot this one the most accurately.
HK P-30:
The grip felt very nice, maybe the best. I think HK makes a nice product and I believe that they may be shedding their reputation as being unfriendly to civilian customers. However if something breaks in my gun I really don't want to wait 6 months for HK Germany to ship the part to HK USA. But the design may have actually been my favorite even though it is made of polymer. I like the magazine release, the decocker location, and the ambidextrous slide release levers. The down side is the same with all double action pistols though-even though DA is maybe my favorite at least mentally, my wife cannot or has difficulty pulling the trigger.
Conclusion:
Glock seems to be the best choice for us, but I would really prefer a tough metal gun, although Glock is probably the toughest gun I am aware of. I am not sure though what would be the best choice, so please help me if you can.
Would anyone take their chances with a Sig? Considering they may be cutting corners, and may be assembling guns in a legislative inspired rush? What about their rifles? It is hard to hate a piston based rifle that takes PMAGs and has a folding collapsible stock.
Would you get a 1911? Are they too problem prone? What is the MIM controversy all about? Would you get a 3, 4, or 5 inch barrel? I think the three inch barrel is the most attractive and desirable, but am I giving up all my ballistic advantage by shooting a .45 through a 3 inch barrel? Would a three-inch barrel cause hollow-points to fail to expand or not punch through barriers such as auto glass?
Would you get a Kimber? They have had their publicized problems in the past but some Marines and LAPD SWAT and SIS use them. Maybe the rumor that they passed their problem higher up employees off to Sig is true. Which one would you get? Eclipse or SIS? Would you get a Colt? Would you get a Wilson or a NightHawk?-Does one really have to pay $2,500 to get a fighting 1911?
Would you get a CZ? If so which one?
What about the M&P9c? I know Todd Green did a test with the M&P9 and his lasted about 60 something thousand rounds with minimal parts breakage. While that sounds very nice, when I think about how the slide cracked and compare it to Chuck Taylor's Glock 17 with over 100 thousand rounds through it or Kelley McCann's Glock 19 with maybe over 200 thousand through it, I am less impressed. I know that both Glock and HK have also made guns that should have been fixed before they left the factory, but still the best endorsement for the M&P comes from Todd Green and I don't like how it stacks up compared to the Glock.
What would you do/did you do?
Thanks!
PS. Why do many shooting instructors dislike full auto so much? I think I shot fairly well for someone who had not shot an MP5 for maybe around 10 years, I grouped repeatedly 3ish shots about the length of my hand from wrist to finger tips. I realize I was using the sights and wasn't under any stress or serious time constraints but for room distances I do not agree with the view that full auto is a bad thing for defensive purposes.
Top Gun range was very nice and clean, and we tried the following: CZ 75B, M&P9c, Kimber 5" CDP in .45, Sig 226 in 40, Sig 229 in 9mm, a Glock 19, Beretta 92FS, and a HK MP5!!!! Earlier in the day we stopped by another store and looked at a HK P-30, but we did not get to do more than dry fire it.
Impressions:
M&P9c:
Originally this had been what I had thought we might get because of its size, a number of agencies switching to it, S&W's excellent customer service, and the features that it offers over Glock. Features such as the cool but not needed loaded chamber indicator, aka a hole drilled into the top of the chamber-which in truth, seems like a place where dust and lint could accumulate, and I doubt the ability to look into the chamber and see brass is as important as it is convenient. I also liked the fact that the S&W doesn't have finger grooves, which I really don't care for them on the Glock. The ability to change grips is another feature it may have over the Glock.
When I shot it it felt like just a gun, and really did not stand out to me. The grip if I remember correctly seemed a little squishy or spongy, and unfortunately, since it had a short grip frame my little finger wanted to curl underneath the mag well when reloading just like on a Glock 26. The two piece trigger is also a concern for me as I could see this part breaking, and while the excellent customer service provided by S&W and its many nice features makes me feel like the M&P is a smart choice, I am concerned about S&W's quality control far more than their ability to design an excellent gun. I realize everyone makes lemons and this is the age of the internet, but I am just not sure that I want to trust my family's lives and daughter's virginity to organized "it'll be okay labor". Even though I would like to own an American made gun, my grandfather did work for GM at one time.
CZ75B:
This also struck me as just a gun. I like it because it was made of metal, was high capacity, and could be carried cocked and locked but I did not care for the curved trigger which I actually found to be painful to the underside of my index finger. I get the impression these are not as trusted as the more common makers but I am not sure what I think of it. It did not malfunction while we fired it.
Beretta 92F:
This was my favorite of the bunch. I really liked the feel of the grip in my hand, the fact that it has a safety-although this is also a negative because the safety could accidentally be turned on, I like the post sights and like how I shoot with it. The downsides are that I believe this is a maintenance intensive gun: requiring more lubrication than some newer designs, more frequent changing of trigger return and recoil springs, and I recall reading somewhere that according to government tests the slide is thought to last about 35,000 rounds before cracking, and the frame may last 70,000 rounds. I also don't like that the new guns have plastic triggers, magazine release buttons, and recoil spring guide rods and maybe other parts. If I am going to carry a metal gun then I want to carry an all metal gun. The locking block breaking is also a concern for me. Another problem is that the gun we rented had several failures to feed when my wife shot it. The slide would stay open with the new bullet pointing at a very high angle. This did not happen with the rental gun for me but I think it has happened in the past when I shot other Berettas. My wife does not have this problem when she shoots other semi-auto handguns, so I think the problem is that since she has small hands, she cannot get enough of her hand around the back of gun to provide enough resistance. Although I am no expert, so what do I know? However my wife did like this gun as a soft shooter. But another negative is that it is a DA with a difficult first pull, although I actually think I did a nice job with shooting the first shot. The trigger may be a little far forward for lady shooters.
Kimber 5" .45 CDP:
I liked this gun. It was light weight, and I think I was able to shoot it well. However while I like .45, I don't like having practically half the rounds I would with a 9mm. I also did not like the rough front grip checkering which was very unpleasant after awhile. My wife doesn't care for the thumb safety because she is afraid she wouldn't remember to deactivate it and it is painful for her to shoot it with her thumb resting on it in what most people consider to be the correct way because it bumps into a sensitive joint area where her thumb connects to the rest of her hand. This Kimber felt rough on the thumb safety also, and after a time I was shooting like Massad Ayoob with my thumb curled tip down.
If I was going to buy and carry a 1911 though it would be a carbon or stainless steel version though-not alloy. I would also want to not have any rough checkering anywhere on the gun.
Sig 226 and 229:
These guns were okay and I actually kind of liked them. The trigger may be a little far forward for lady shooters, but I was okay with them. I have read about how Sig is cutting corners by having its parts produced in different countries and has stopped phosphating the internals of their pistols or magazines. This is sad to me because with all the strikes against Beretta, Sig would be my first choice with metal handguns and maybe even with rifles but the fact that they may not be living up to their reputation as a high end gun leads me to say no to a gun that would be a top choice otherwise.
Glock 19:
I view Glock as being the AK-47 of the handgun world. Tough, durable and reliable. Its ergonomics may leave a lot to be desired but if it needs to fire, I would trust it. My wife thinks I shot this one the most accurately.
HK P-30:
The grip felt very nice, maybe the best. I think HK makes a nice product and I believe that they may be shedding their reputation as being unfriendly to civilian customers. However if something breaks in my gun I really don't want to wait 6 months for HK Germany to ship the part to HK USA. But the design may have actually been my favorite even though it is made of polymer. I like the magazine release, the decocker location, and the ambidextrous slide release levers. The down side is the same with all double action pistols though-even though DA is maybe my favorite at least mentally, my wife cannot or has difficulty pulling the trigger.
Conclusion:
Glock seems to be the best choice for us, but I would really prefer a tough metal gun, although Glock is probably the toughest gun I am aware of. I am not sure though what would be the best choice, so please help me if you can.
Would anyone take their chances with a Sig? Considering they may be cutting corners, and may be assembling guns in a legislative inspired rush? What about their rifles? It is hard to hate a piston based rifle that takes PMAGs and has a folding collapsible stock.
Would you get a 1911? Are they too problem prone? What is the MIM controversy all about? Would you get a 3, 4, or 5 inch barrel? I think the three inch barrel is the most attractive and desirable, but am I giving up all my ballistic advantage by shooting a .45 through a 3 inch barrel? Would a three-inch barrel cause hollow-points to fail to expand or not punch through barriers such as auto glass?
Would you get a Kimber? They have had their publicized problems in the past but some Marines and LAPD SWAT and SIS use them. Maybe the rumor that they passed their problem higher up employees off to Sig is true. Which one would you get? Eclipse or SIS? Would you get a Colt? Would you get a Wilson or a NightHawk?-Does one really have to pay $2,500 to get a fighting 1911?
Would you get a CZ? If so which one?
What about the M&P9c? I know Todd Green did a test with the M&P9 and his lasted about 60 something thousand rounds with minimal parts breakage. While that sounds very nice, when I think about how the slide cracked and compare it to Chuck Taylor's Glock 17 with over 100 thousand rounds through it or Kelley McCann's Glock 19 with maybe over 200 thousand through it, I am less impressed. I know that both Glock and HK have also made guns that should have been fixed before they left the factory, but still the best endorsement for the M&P comes from Todd Green and I don't like how it stacks up compared to the Glock.
What would you do/did you do?
Thanks!
PS. Why do many shooting instructors dislike full auto so much? I think I shot fairly well for someone who had not shot an MP5 for maybe around 10 years, I grouped repeatedly 3ish shots about the length of my hand from wrist to finger tips. I realize I was using the sights and wasn't under any stress or serious time constraints but for room distances I do not agree with the view that full auto is a bad thing for defensive purposes.
