What would you do with this rifle & scope....

[Hokkmike]

I have a CZ Model 527 in .223. Very nice rifle. I had been having trouble getting the the scope leveled and the crosshairs in a perfect vertical / horizontal position. So, I enlisted the aid of a local gunsmith who has the proper equipment to level the scope, adjust the reticles, and bore sight the scope. The scope is a quality Leupold Varix III 3.5x10x40.

So, it is done. When I bring the rifle to my shoulder the vertical reticle extends up from about the 5:55 position to 11:55 at the top. I have to tilt the gun slightly to the right to have the crosshairs in a perfect vertical and horizontal plain. In other words, the up and down reticle is canted slightly to the left.

Here is my question. Assuming that the gunsmith did a competent job should I learn to shoot the rifle the way it is set or should I readjust the reticles so that they automatically appear to be perfectly aligned for me?

I hope I have explained myself clearly.

 

[troy fairweather]

Very simple send it in for a new one for free. You should always level the scope by the reticle if possible.

 

[troy fairweather]

Forgot to ask are you sure it's not a knockoff scope, they look pretty real so check the numbers with leupold.

 

[chicharrones]

I'll give my less than expert perspective. Important to note that I'm not a long range rifle shooter.

Mechanically lining up the scope reticle to the rifle is something that never works perfectly with my body position or eyeballs. Considering the different positions one may hold a rifle; prone, bench, sitting, standing, tree support, etc. Even my progressive glasses cause a bit of reticle viewing "misalignment".*

I start out bore sighting a scope and getting the reticle as mechanically true as reasonable. Right after that, I notice that if I shoulder the rifle on my right, the reticle leans one way, and if I shoulder the rifle on my left, it leans the other way. Back to my normal right handed shooting side, I fine tune the reticle alignment a bit after trying a few shooting positions.

So, when I shoot someone else's rifle, their scope reticle usually doesn't look perfectly vertical to my eyes and vice versa. Considering the physical differences between people, and different eyesight situations, it seems pretty normal for this to occur.

Edit:
*What I mean by this is, if I put the rifle onto a level table and look through the scope to bore relationship with my eyes, my left eye will perceive the scope reticle leaning one way and my right eye will perceive it leaning the other way.

 

[JumboJVT]

Is the scope aligned with the vertical axis of the rifle? Or does the gun just fit you in a manner that the rifle is slightly canted when you mount it? With those older Leupolds and their long, very forgiving eye relief, you should be able to place a straightedge vertically aligned with the but pad screws, and with the scope on it lowest power, you should still be able to see enough light to verify alignment.

 

[Boomholzer]

Depends on distance/range & if the POI deviates from POA in your practice or use-case when using the knobs to dial... or trying to use (I assume a simple duplex) the reticle outside of the center for windage or holds. If not, it doesn't matter.
The presented duplex reticle in the erector tube and the erector cell assembly which moves the reticle up/down/left/right as a 2-axis system are not always aligned. It's a assembly of parts. Leupold was known for this across the 90's in even the high-tier optics.
FWIW, I usually initially mount LR optics indexing off the bottom of the external erector cell. A simple practice with flat or picatinny optic rails/mounts. With a dove-tail it doesn't work. Small bubble levels and bore line cards don't work well IMO.

In any case, a box test at range is the best way to characterize the optic's adjustments or to see if they are cooperating to your utility. If your natural hold position is changing from optical feedback (which it does), it could be an issue. Off-hand, its easy to cant a rifle based on the optic background. So you have four potentially conflicting inputs; your natural hold, the reticle alignment, the erector cell alignment to adjusting POI, and the optical background you see on earth using vertical and horizontal features as a reference without even thinking about it. In this case, the actual detriment of a cant'ed reticle could be something or nothing.

 

[jmr40]

Are the crosshairs not vertical, or are you canting the rifle? If a gunsmith used proper tools to get the scope level, the scope should be level. The error might be in your form. If the scope is mounted right I'd hold the rifle so the crosshairs are vertical.

The scope is a quality Leupold Varix III 3.5x10x40.

Are you sure about that?

If so that is a very old scope, probably at least 30, maybe 40-50 years old. And even the best optics have a limited shelf life. The Varix scopes using roman numerals were phased out a long time ago. They went to Varix 1, 2, and 3 using arabic numbers, then VX, 1,2, and 3 and then VX-3i, which has also being phased out for a newer version.

The glass may be as good as ever, but internals may no longer be working properly and rubber seals dry rot over time. And the glass on a $200 scope today is going to be better than most higher end scopes from 30 years ago

 

[hawg]

Remove the magazine and set the rifle on a level flat surface. Look through the scope and see if it's still canted.

 

[Laphroaig]

What I would do I'd find out what is causing the problem. Could be:

1) Scope was not mounted correctly and the crosshairs are not plumb with the rifle;
2) The crosshairs are crooked within the scope;
3) You are canting the rifle

1) Either take it back to the gunsmith or level them yourself.
2) Send the scope back to Leupold.
3) Your choice, either stop canting or accept the results. I'd never twist the crosshairs to be vertical with my cant.

 

[d2wing]

If possible I bore sight rifles against a verticle line such a a house wall that I know is plumb or you can use a plumb bob. It is very important that the verticle hair dissects the center of the bore. Do not adjust it to suit how you hold it. Then it will always be canted. The bullet drops straight down, gravity is always verticle. If you cant the scope or rifle the bullet will always fly left or right depending on the cant. You can never shoot it accurately that way. The sure way to check it is to put the rifle in a vice or fixture as level as possible then aim it at a known verticle or plumb bob. The plumb line should perfectly dissect the scope and bore at the same time. The verticle crosshair should align with the plumb line. With some rifles you can't look down the barrel so you need tools to make sure the rifle is level. Then you can still use a plumb line to check the level of the scope. There are several ways to do this.

 

[WVRJ]

I mount and level around 50 scopes a year for myself and my customers,and I've ran into a lot of things that can mess with how level the crosshairs look to you.I'll start by saying your smith did a good job for you.He probably used a level setup of some sort,most likely the Wheeler.It uses a small level that is placed on the rail or scope bases or a flat place on the action(best).Once the rifle is level,another level is clamped to the barrel and set to match the first level.Now the scope is set in the rings and snugged down enough to stay put but can still be rotated in the rings.The small level that was used to level the rifle in the first step is then placed on the top turret of the scope and the scope is rotated in the rings until both levels are centered.Not a complicated process,but more room for error than one might think.If he leveled everything up and tightened the ring screws and didn't check the levels after they were properly tightened,the scope probably moved out of level as the screws were tightened.It happens.Even with high dollar rings and rings that are lapped,a scope will often roll a little bit as the rings are tightened.Another thing that can be causing problems is the scope itself.Leupold makes damn good scopes,but they aren't always perfect.And if you think they're bad,check over some of the late model cheapies out there.I've seen top turrets that aren't square.I have a VX5HD Leupold that has a reticle that isn't in proper alignment with the true vertical line of the scope.If I level the top turret,the reticle is obviously canted a very small amount.Scope geometry errors are very common,much more than I used to think.About the best method to properly level a scope is a plumb bob with a bright colored string and a small precision level that is placed on a flat surface as close to the action as possible if there's not a flat spot on the action.Most mounts nowadays use a Pic rail,and it's the next best thing to a flat spot on the action.Or a special fixture that has a rail that is calibrated to a precision level that makes sure the rings are level.These fixtures are pricey for the occasional scope mounter,so a level as close to the action as possible is probably the best.Wheeler apparently calibrates their levels,and messing with them voids the warranty.I put the plumb bob at 100 yards for high magnification scopes with fine reticles,and closer for lower power/heavy crosshairs.It's simple from here on.Put the rifle in a vise,on a benchrest setup or good sandbags and level it.Rotate the scope until the plumb string and the vertical crosshair are aligned with each other and the rifle is level.Check it several times and do it in good light.Tighten the screws evenly and a little bit at a time and check the level and plumb bob as you go.It'll probably take a few tries,especially if the rings aren't lapped or of very high quality.
Then there is the possibility of a counterfeit scope.The Chinese are very good at making their s$%tlook like the real thing,but there's a dead giveaway for any of the counterfeits,and I've seen several,and they're showing up more and more often.The giveaway for all that I've seen is the power adjustment ring.I checked with Leupold on three different occasions from three different levels of employees and got the same answer from all of them-EVERY Leupold scope increases the magnification by turning the ring CLOCKWISE looking at the rear of the scope.The Chinese junks are turned COUNTERCLOCKWISE to increase magnification.If you got one that turns the dumb way,it's basically junk.Some idiots will say that the quality of the bogus scopes is about as good as the real thing,and I can say with certainty that they are truly idiots and should be prayed for.I've disassembled the bogus scopes,and they are as ugly as the country they come from.They are easy to take apart.The real ones are impossible without the proper tools and information.Counterfeits have no lens coating,they aren't nitrogen or argon purged,they aren't even watertight.The crosshairs are cut from a piece of steel that basically just gets glued to the erector tube,the insides of them are full of dirt and filings and they are painted,not anodized like the real thing.Take a small nail and scratch the inside of a turret cap from a Ching Chung scope and you'll see metal.Do it to a genuine Leupold and you'll dull the nail.
These pieces of junk aren't close to level and true,and they are worthless for anything.Hopefully the OP doesn't have one of these.
I apologize for the long drawn out post that is chock full of worthless information,and for my lack of dividing it up by paragraphs for the English teachers among us.But,hopefully,someone might get a little something good out of it.It's just my experience,no internet,no BS,just what I've seen and how I do things.I'll say that my experience is limited in this field and I know about a lot of the mistakes because I've made(and learned)from them.

 

[WVRJ]

A quick word about cant.1 degree of cant will move point of impact about 5 inches at 1,000 yards.If you put a level on your scope or rifle and set it to be level when the crosshair and the plumb bob are aligned and your rifle was properly leveled,you've gained a lot of ground in eliminating the cant effect.Now all you have to get figured out is spin drift,wind,temperature,humidity,mirage,barrel harmonics and about 471 more variables to master the rifle.

 

[d2wing]

In answer to your question do not mess with adjusting the reticle. Try to hold the rifle close to level. The way most people shoot it won't make a big difference at closer ranges. If possible avoid canting the scope.

 

[Howland937]

I'm curious as to whether the OP has shouldered the rifle on his non-dominant side and looked with his non-dominant eye, and if so, does it appear off in the same way?

What rings? Weaver quick-detach rings will roll a scope when you torque the screws even if it was straight when you snugged them down.

I've had cheap scopes that the cross hairs were somehow on a different axis than the turret knobs.

 

[Hokkmike]

Sooooo many good answers here. The High Road at its highest. I appreciate all of the time and effort many of you put into very informative answers.

The scope was purchased some years ago from a local gun dealer who ordered it for me from his supplier. He assures me that it is a genuine Leupold. The rings are Warnke.

(I believe I have that spelled correctly). They were designed to fit the CZ .527. The gunsmith has assured me that she will assist me, yes a woman, and she has her own store, in making sure I am satisfied if I want to make changes. I will say that I alway have mounted and sighted in my scopes by myself. This particular rifle and ring combo has been a little challenging.

I will try to hold the rifle so that the lines are vertical and horizontal to my vision and see how she works at the range. I also will take the time to reread all of YOUR contributions. .......

 

[LiveLife]

When I bring the rifle to my shoulder the vertical reticle extends up from about the 5:55 position to 11:55 at the top. I have to tilt the gun slightly to the right to have the crosshairs in a perfect vertical and horizontal plain. In other words, the up and down reticle is canted slightly to the left.

Have you experienced this problem with any other rifle/scope?

And have you mentioned the problem to the gunsmith?

 

[Varminterror]

When I mount a scope, I position the rings on the scope by setting my eye relief with the scope loosely mounted on the rifle, then I move the rings and scope over to a weighted leveling and tracking jig, where I can level the jig, and level the reticle. I then crank the elevation turret against a plumb line to ensure not only that the reticle is level at zero, but also that the reticle is plumb to the erector assembly and elevation adjustment - meaning my vertical won’t drift left or right as I dial for range. I then install a bubble level on the scope, and return the scope, locked in the rings, onto the rifle, and I confirm bore alignment with a collimator set (which is superfluous, as I’ve never detected an offset during this step if the previous process is followed).

From then on, any cant to the reticle observed is known to be caused by my hold of the rifle, and no fault in the hardware.

This is the leveling/tracking jig I use, fab’d by a local gunsmith a handful of years ago.



Here’s an example I put together for another hunting forum several years ago, reflecting the importance of leveling a reticle even in a common hunting rifle - a 30-06 with a simple duplex reticle, fired at a common 300 yards (4moa hold over). The orange dot in the reticle reflects the target in the reticle picture, with the green line showing the reticle aligned with the bore, and the red line reflecting a 10 degree cant between the reticle and rifle. The center case shows what happens when the rifle is held level, but the optic is canted, while the right hand example shows what happens when the reticle is held level, meaning the rifle is canted beneath it.

The Green dot with black X shows the point of impact on target based on applying the geometric/trigonometric solution to the ballistic trajectory.

This graphic shows that if a reticle is canted - 10 degrees - firing with only 4moa of elevation compensation, the impact will shift as far as 2/3moa, and also shows that canting the reticle is far more consequential than canting the rifle (~2” miss versus 1/2” miss).

 

[Jim Watson]

I have fiddled and diddled with scope rings to get crosshairs "square with the world" and then made sure to have a level hold from a steady position. The old one sided Weavers are a real pain to deal with.

David Tubb is a rather notorious rifle canter but he seems to get good results.

 

[taliv]

I had been having trouble getting the the scope leveled and the crosshairs in a perfect vertical / horizontal position. So, I enlisted the aid of a local gunsmith who has the proper equipment to level the scope, adjust the reticles, and bore sight the scope.

this is probably an unpopular opinion, but YOU have what you need to mount a scope and your gunsmith does not.
For leveling, put the gun on sandbags or something to hold it still, then use a bubble level to make sure it is level. hang a plumb line. place the scope loosely in the lower rings and turn the scope in the rings until the crosshair is aligned with the plumb line. tighten the rings.

it's pretty simple.

what your gunsmith lacks, unless they measured you, is knowing where your eyeball sits when you're holding the gun in order to move the scope forward or backward so that your eyeball is in the middle of the eyebox. you should do this step prior to leveling as described previously.

The scope is a quality Leupold Varix III 3.5x10x40.

decent scope. that's what i used in the late 90s. we've come a LONG way since then.

So, it is done. When I bring the rifle to my shoulder the vertical reticle extends up from about the 5:55 position to 11:55 at the top. I have to tilt the gun slightly to the right to have the crosshairs in a perfect vertical and horizontal plain. In other words, the up and down reticle is canted slightly to the left.

some national champion level shooters famously prefer to hold the rifle in a canted position, and adjust the scope so that it's level with the horizon when the gun is canted. that's probably not useful in a general setting, and only applicable to something like HighPower/CMP. But it's something to think about. Mostly, you should prob adjust your position so it's level, but there are exceptions.

i spent a few days in the shop of a very famous gunsmith watching his team build rifles. he mounted scopes just by eyeballing them. i asked him why he didn't use a level. he said he used to, but customers kept complaining that the scopes weren't level. so he started eyeballing them and customers never complained. funny, huh?

Here is my question. Assuming that the gunsmith did a competent job should I learn to shoot the rifle the way it is set or should I readjust the reticles so that they automatically appear to be perfectly aligned for me?

try it different ways and see what works for you. but remember there's a reason why planes have gauges that show the horizon instead of just letting pilots fly by the seat of their pants and trust the internal level in their ears.

 

[someguy2800]

I just wanted to add I used to spend a great deal of time fiddling with getting scopes level and fancied myself pretty good at it until I bought the wheeler engineering leveling kit and then tested the tracking on a few with a plumb bob. Turns out I’m not as good at being able to tell if I’m holding the rifle level as I thought I was.

 

[earplug]

If your scope and scope base have flat areas. Its just a matter of measuring the flats and making them equal.
You can use a stack of feeler gauges or other comparative devices to level the scope to the base.

 

[Varminterror]

some national champion level shooters famously prefer to hold the rifle in a canted position, and adjust the scope so that it's level with the horizon when the gun is canted. that's probably not useful in a general setting, and only applicable to something like HighPower/CMP. But it's something to think about.

Cant drift can be compensated - adding to @taliv’s comment here about HP/CMP shooting, I know a top level ELR shooter, word record breaker, which was shooting a few years ago (still maybe?) with a scope he had proven had a small percentage of windage drift with elevation. Shooting 3000+ yards, a small percentage became very large offsets.

So his competition DOPE book included that drift. He dialed extra windage as he dialed elevation to account for the machining imperfection in the optic. Not ideal, and it took a lot of proving on the firing line, but he was very successful despite the imperfection in the gear. He also does calibration tests on his optics to determine if the adjustment units are true or deviate by any percentage - his calibration data proves it is relatively common for even top of the line optics to have some few percentage of lag or lead in elevation adjustment scale. Again, compensated in his data books.

For the rest of us, it’s just more burden to compensate for cant drift. I don’t want to have to correct the windage or scale elevation on my hunting rifle or my PRS rifle, so I true the rigs as best I can, then level the rifle and reticle in the field as best I can, so every position has the same opportunity for simplified ballistic solutions.

 

[Skylerbone]

I start with scope in the ring saddles with one cap lightly screwed in to prevent the scope from falling to the floor and set eye relief. That gets small witness marks with a pencil. Scope is then removed.

I have a cheap gun vise for cleaning that I use to clamp the rifle level. Placing a bubble level perpendicular to the bore at the pic rail, I increase clamping pressure until it’s firm and cannot squirm free when I tighten ring caps. Scope is added back and rings loosely tightened.

Then I’m simply checking my plumb line and applying a small amount of tension with rings until it’s set. Check the elevation turret (zero it if possible) then spin it up then down then back to center to confirm. Loosen and adjust as needed.

 

[d2wing]

Cant drift can be compensated - adding to @taliv’s comment here about HP/CMP shooting, I know a top level ELR shooter, word record breaker, which was shooting a few years ago (still maybe?) with a scope he had proven had a small percentage of windage drift with elevation. Shooting 3000+ yards, a small percentage became very large offsets.

So his competition DOPE book included that drift. He dialed extra windage as he dialed elevation to account for the machining imperfection in the optic. Not ideal, and it took a lot of proving on the firing line, but he was very successful despite the imperfection in the gear. He also does calibration tests on his optics to determine if the adjustment units are true or deviate by any percentage - his calibration data proves it is relatively common for even top of the line optics to have some few percentage of lag or lead in elevation adjustment scale. Again, compensated in his data books.

For the rest of us, it’s just more burden to compensate for cant drift. I don’t want to have to correct the windage or scale elevation on my hunting rifle or my PRS rifle, so I true the rigs as best I can, then level the rifle and reticle in the field as best I can, so every position has the same opportunity for simplified ballistic solutions.

Yes you can shoot with a cant. But you have to know precisely the range and exact adjustments for you set-up at the exact range. It adds another set of complications that few are capable of dealing with.

 

[mgmorden]

You should always level the scope by the reticle if possible.

Yep - I've got one of those scope leveling kits but I don't use the one that sits on the scope. I put the rifle in a cradle, and then put the magnetic level on a flat of the rifle (if I can't find a suitable flat I'll use a regular spirit level aligned across the recoil pad screws, though this is less precise.

Then I take a shoestring, tie a weight/plumb to it, and hang it from a door frame on the end of the living room. Gravity will make the string perfectly vertical. Go back to the rifle and without disturbing its level, rotate the scope until the vertical portion of the crosshair is parallel with the shoestring. Then tighten down one scope ring to hold it. Verify that everything is still level. Apply loctite to the second scope ring and tighten. Remove the screws from the first scope ring, apply loctite, and then retighten.

As long as you can look from the breech end of the gun (most bolt actions and single shots) you can then do an initial bore-sighting by looking down the bore at the plumb (paint it a bright color if need be) and then adjusting the crosshair to it.