kennedy
Member
I love the .40 had a smith in 9mm, hated it, bought a smith in .40 love it enough for home defense, if you buy the walmart WWB value pack ammo is affordable, and I now reload for it.
"What? You Don't Have A .40 Caliber In Your Collection"?
- Thread starter Ala Dan
- Start date
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355sig,
You just don't get it, you're hung up those numbers your posting which do not tell the whole picture.
A larger bullet in diameter at precise impact, one that is substantially heavier and travels the same speed is going provide a harder feeling hit than a lighter, thinner one, simple. The shear fact that it is larger in diameter but yet penetrating deeper (or even the same) is enough to show my 8yr the reality.
My whole point all along has been that the .40S&W is indeed a more poweful round than the 9mm, which you dismiss. I show you this in standard pressure loads. You show +P+ 9mm stats to prove your point. I show +P (heavy) .40 S&W loads to compare equally, which compare to .357 Mag loads, and you dismiss them by them being too powerful for humans. Make up your mind dude.
__________________
Marshall
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Your right I don't get it. First off there is no +p 40sw does not exist. There is no estabilshed +p rating for the 40sw as its a modern cartridged loaded to hi pressures. Thats all +p means is high pressure. The 40 does not compare to the 357 mag I never said that. I also never said the 357 mag was too powerfull for humans. I said the 357 mag with the right loads is capable of handgun hunting medium to large game while the 9mm is not. Neither is the 40sw.
Also I am confused as to what you mean by the term harder feeling hit. Were not dealing with pain compliance here. Were talking about drilling holes that leak blood. The simple fact is the 40 and 9mm are pretty much identical in terminal performance. If I don't get it than I am in good company. Because the IWBA, Dr. Fackler, and even Evan Marshall all balistics experts seem to agree that there is no appreciable difference between all the service calibers when it comes to stopping power.
Pat
You just don't get it, you're hung up those numbers your posting which do not tell the whole picture.
A larger bullet in diameter at precise impact, one that is substantially heavier and travels the same speed is going provide a harder feeling hit than a lighter, thinner one, simple. The shear fact that it is larger in diameter but yet penetrating deeper (or even the same) is enough to show my 8yr the reality.
My whole point all along has been that the .40S&W is indeed a more poweful round than the 9mm, which you dismiss. I show you this in standard pressure loads. You show +P+ 9mm stats to prove your point. I show +P (heavy) .40 S&W loads to compare equally, which compare to .357 Mag loads, and you dismiss them by them being too powerful for humans. Make up your mind dude.
__________________
Marshall
END QUOTE
Your right I don't get it. First off there is no +p 40sw does not exist. There is no estabilshed +p rating for the 40sw as its a modern cartridged loaded to hi pressures. Thats all +p means is high pressure. The 40 does not compare to the 357 mag I never said that. I also never said the 357 mag was too powerfull for humans. I said the 357 mag with the right loads is capable of handgun hunting medium to large game while the 9mm is not. Neither is the 40sw.
Also I am confused as to what you mean by the term harder feeling hit. Were not dealing with pain compliance here. Were talking about drilling holes that leak blood. The simple fact is the 40 and 9mm are pretty much identical in terminal performance. If I don't get it than I am in good company. Because the IWBA, Dr. Fackler, and even Evan Marshall all balistics experts seem to agree that there is no appreciable difference between all the service calibers when it comes to stopping power.
Pat
Marshall
Member
OK, the 40 is no more more powerful. 
Buffalo bore...40S&W 155gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps (582 ft. lbs.)
CorBon...357 Mag 140gr JHP @ 1325 fps (546 ft lbs)
Ranger T...+P+ 9mm 127gr. (440 ft lbs.) Your choice btw.
There's no comparison, the 9mm doesn't stack up to the larger and even heavier 40S&W or .357 Mag that are indeed very similar.
OK, let go to standard.
Winchester Silvertip....40 S&W 155 gr. 1205 500
Winchester Silvertip....9mm 115 gr. 1225 383
Winchester Silvertip....9mm 147 gr. 1010 333
The deal is, no matter what figures you use, I'll find a comparable 40 that whoops the 9's butt in power regardless of what you or, the names you threw out to back you, say.
The 40 will always be larger, heavier and more powerful than a 9mm. I am sorry you're blind to that, I guess you just don't want to see.
Buffalo bore...40S&W 155gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps (582 ft. lbs.)
CorBon...357 Mag 140gr JHP @ 1325 fps (546 ft lbs)
Ranger T...+P+ 9mm 127gr. (440 ft lbs.) Your choice btw.
There's no comparison, the 9mm doesn't stack up to the larger and even heavier 40S&W or .357 Mag that are indeed very similar.
OK, let go to standard.
Winchester Silvertip....40 S&W 155 gr. 1205 500
Winchester Silvertip....9mm 115 gr. 1225 383
Winchester Silvertip....9mm 147 gr. 1010 333
The deal is, no matter what figures you use, I'll find a comparable 40 that whoops the 9's butt in power regardless of what you or, the names you threw out to back you, say.
The 40 will always be larger, heavier and more powerful than a 9mm. I am sorry you're blind to that, I guess you just don't want to see.
Not that I would carry this ammo but here is Double tap.
115gr GDHP +p - 1400fps
124gr GDHP +p - 1300fps
147gr GDHP +p - 1125fps
Here is Buffalo bore.
(+P+) 115gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1400 fps
500 ft. lbs.
(+P+) 124gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps
461 ft. lbs.
(+P+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1175 fps
451 ft. lbs
So 500 footpounds vs 580 yawn. Wow really big edge.
With ammo I would carry and ammo that other law enforcement carries.
Winchester Ranger +p+ 127 grain at 440 foot pounds. 165 Grain 40 sw Ranger at 484 footpounds. Oh wow.
Your the one that does not get it.
Pat
115gr GDHP +p - 1400fps
124gr GDHP +p - 1300fps
147gr GDHP +p - 1125fps
Here is Buffalo bore.
(+P+) 115gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1400 fps
500 ft. lbs.
(+P+) 124gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps
461 ft. lbs.
(+P+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1175 fps
451 ft. lbs
So 500 footpounds vs 580 yawn. Wow really big edge.
With ammo I would carry and ammo that other law enforcement carries.
Winchester Ranger +p+ 127 grain at 440 foot pounds. 165 Grain 40 sw Ranger at 484 footpounds. Oh wow.
Your the one that does not get it.
Pat
Something else to consider Buffalo bore ammo is not safe in all 40's.
QUOTE
“This data is intended for use in firearms which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other conditions which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter or bystanders.”
Glock happens to chamber their 40 S&W pistols without a fully supported chamber and both of those above safety notices are likely aimed at Glock. I know of no other 40 S&W handguns being sold in the US that don’t have fully supported chambers. If you really want to shoot our 40S&W ammo in your Glock, have an after market barrel that uses a supported chamber, dropped into it. This is a fairly common practice and will give you the safety margin needed to fire our ammo in your Glock. It will also likely give you more velocity that the factory Glock barrel. I personally own two Glock Model 23’s. Both of mine are going to get after market barrels dropped in so that I can use this excellent ammo in them.
Check out the velocities below that I shot with these loads in several modern pistols that I own. We don’t believe that test barrels are a very real way of determining real life velocities out of real life guns that you will be using. So, as with all of our ammo, we use real firearms to determine real velocities.
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Their overloading their ammo and labeling it +p which by the way does not exist accorind to SAMMI. If you like your 40 sw pistol and your fingers you may want to steer clear of this stuff.
Pat
QUOTE
“This data is intended for use in firearms which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other conditions which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter or bystanders.”
Glock happens to chamber their 40 S&W pistols without a fully supported chamber and both of those above safety notices are likely aimed at Glock. I know of no other 40 S&W handguns being sold in the US that don’t have fully supported chambers. If you really want to shoot our 40S&W ammo in your Glock, have an after market barrel that uses a supported chamber, dropped into it. This is a fairly common practice and will give you the safety margin needed to fire our ammo in your Glock. It will also likely give you more velocity that the factory Glock barrel. I personally own two Glock Model 23’s. Both of mine are going to get after market barrels dropped in so that I can use this excellent ammo in them.
Check out the velocities below that I shot with these loads in several modern pistols that I own. We don’t believe that test barrels are a very real way of determining real life velocities out of real life guns that you will be using. So, as with all of our ammo, we use real firearms to determine real velocities.
END QUOTE
Their overloading their ammo and labeling it +p which by the way does not exist accorind to SAMMI. If you like your 40 sw pistol and your fingers you may want to steer clear of this stuff.
Pat
Marshall
Member
People used to say the same with 9mm+P+, some still do. Glock is the only pistol they say stay away from when using it. Point being, it doesn't change the facts.
Marshall
Member
You're trying to be cute and compare apples and oranges again. You dropped to a 115gr bullet to get 500, I can get the same with a 180gr. Go check your penetration figures with those two.
You say what most people use.....+P+ 9mm. Maybe where you hang but not where I do. Most people I know use standard 9mm or +P. I don't even like shooting +P, much less +P+ in my Hi-Powers.
Bottom line is, apples to apples, the .40 is more powerful.
I got one for you.....if you truly believe the 40 is no more powerful than the 9mm, type or copy the following and sign your name.
'In like bullet weight and loadings, heavy to heavy, medium to medium, light to light, the 40S&W is no more powerful than the 9mm.'
Sign your name to that and I'll believe you believe it. Because right now I don't belive you do, I believe you know it's more powerful and are just trying to cover your 9mm liking, for some reason?
Oh yea, feel free to sleep on it cause I hitting the hay.
You say what most people use.....+P+ 9mm. Maybe where you hang but not where I do. Most people I know use standard 9mm or +P. I don't even like shooting +P, much less +P+ in my Hi-Powers.
Bottom line is, apples to apples, the .40 is more powerful.
I got one for you.....if you truly believe the 40 is no more powerful than the 9mm, type or copy the following and sign your name.
'In like bullet weight and loadings, heavy to heavy, medium to medium, light to light, the 40S&W is no more powerful than the 9mm.'
Sign your name to that and I'll believe you believe it. Because right now I don't belive you do, I believe you know it's more powerful and are just trying to cover your 9mm liking, for some reason?
Oh yea, feel free to sleep on it cause I hitting the hay.
gulogulo1970
Member
"So in all reality the 40 is just not worth it. If you want a appreciably larger hole than the 9mm skip the 40 and go to the 45. If not the 9mm is fine."
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Compairing 9mm and 40S&W is, well like, compairing apples with heavier apples.
But, compairing the 40S&W with the 45ACP is well not the same when you think of ammunition capacity. I can grab my Glock 22 throw it in the car and have 15+1 rounds ready to go. Most 45's hold, what, 7+1 or maybe 8+1. Knowing I most likely will not have to reload, unless I've wandered into a war, is comforting and why my Glock 22 is my car gun.
Also with the newer bullet designs of the last 10 years most of the differences in the caliber wars are pretty meaningless. But the 40S&W does deliver a little more energy than a 9mm, fact. The cost is the speed of the follow up shot(s).
So, do you want to hit them with a somewhat more powerful round or do you want to hit them with a faster rate of fire with a less powerful round? To me every gun handgun chambering has its own compromises.
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Compairing 9mm and 40S&W is, well like, compairing apples with heavier apples.
But, compairing the 40S&W with the 45ACP is well not the same when you think of ammunition capacity. I can grab my Glock 22 throw it in the car and have 15+1 rounds ready to go. Most 45's hold, what, 7+1 or maybe 8+1. Knowing I most likely will not have to reload, unless I've wandered into a war, is comforting and why my Glock 22 is my car gun.
Also with the newer bullet designs of the last 10 years most of the differences in the caliber wars are pretty meaningless. But the 40S&W does deliver a little more energy than a 9mm, fact. The cost is the speed of the follow up shot(s).
So, do you want to hit them with a somewhat more powerful round or do you want to hit them with a faster rate of fire with a less powerful round? To me every gun handgun chambering has its own compromises.
But, compairing the 40S&W with the 45ACP is well not the same when you think of ammunition capacity. I can grab my Glock 22 throw it in the car and have 15+1 rounds ready to go. Most 45's hold, what, 7+1 or maybe 8+1. Knowing I most likely will not have to reload, unless I've wandered into a war, is comforting and why my Glock 22 is my car gun.
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Apples to oranges compare a Glock 21 with 13 +1 vs your 40 at 15 +1.
Personally capacity is not a big deal to me and I prefer 1911's. Most people will not live long enough to miss 15 times.
Pat
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Apples to oranges compare a Glock 21 with 13 +1 vs your 40 at 15 +1.
Personally capacity is not a big deal to me and I prefer 1911's. Most people will not live long enough to miss 15 times.
Pat
gulogulo1970
Member
But, I can't hold a Glock 21, Its too big. Sorry, if it holds 45's it better be a 1911 style pistol. Call me old fashioned.
"Most people will not live long enough to miss 15 times."
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Damn, I can't argue with that.
"Most people will not live long enough to miss 15 times."
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Damn, I can't argue with that.
OK real numbers time. The 40 S&W Glock 27 verses a two inch barrel 357 MAG. If you measure the revolver the same way as you measure the auto the 2" revolver barrel plus the cylinder measures 3 5/8 inches. The Glock 27 has a 3 1/2 inch barrel. As you can see from the photo below the two pistols are very similar in size.
From my own average velocity readings:
My Glock 27:
155 Speer GDHP................1106 fps / 421 energy 76 momentum
165 Win Ranger T..............1093 fps / 438 energy 80 momentum
180 Win Ranger T...............896 fps / 321 energy 72 momentum
180 Rem HP.......................947 fps / 358 energy 76 momentum
My Rossi 357 MAG:
158 PMC SJSP.................... 968 fps / 329 energy 68 momentum
158 Federal SJSP................1022 fps / 366 energy 72 momentum
125 Federal SJHP................1145 fps / 364 energy 64 momentum
The 357 Mag and the 40 S&W are similar. The 357 will really come to life and out power the 40 in longer barrels but the 40 out powers the 357 in shorter barrels. Also the 40 does have the advantage of having a wider bullet.
My carry load for the Glock 27 is the mild Winchester 180 grain Ranger T.
My carry load for the Rossi is the Federal 125 SJHP 357 MAG.
I also have a 5 1/3" barrel Glock 35. My carry load is the Speer Gold Dot 155 grain that does 1245 fps / 533 energy 86 momentum.
From my own average velocity readings:
My Glock 27:
155 Speer GDHP................1106 fps / 421 energy 76 momentum
165 Win Ranger T..............1093 fps / 438 energy 80 momentum
180 Win Ranger T...............896 fps / 321 energy 72 momentum
180 Rem HP.......................947 fps / 358 energy 76 momentum
My Rossi 357 MAG:
158 PMC SJSP.................... 968 fps / 329 energy 68 momentum
158 Federal SJSP................1022 fps / 366 energy 72 momentum
125 Federal SJHP................1145 fps / 364 energy 64 momentum
The 357 Mag and the 40 S&W are similar. The 357 will really come to life and out power the 40 in longer barrels but the 40 out powers the 357 in shorter barrels. Also the 40 does have the advantage of having a wider bullet.
My carry load for the Glock 27 is the mild Winchester 180 grain Ranger T.
My carry load for the Rossi is the Federal 125 SJHP 357 MAG.
I also have a 5 1/3" barrel Glock 35. My carry load is the Speer Gold Dot 155 grain that does 1245 fps / 533 energy 86 momentum.
Marshall
Member
Well, I see you wouldn't sign that, that tells me all I need to know.
I found some data on the Glock 26 in 9mm. The Glock 26 in 9mm is otherwise identical to the Glock 27 in 40 S&W.
These are velocity numbers from Gun Test Magazine.
From a 3 1/2 inch barrel Glock 26:
115 FMJ...........1009 FPS / 260 energy 52 momentum
124 JHP +P.......1149 FPS / 364 energy 63 momentum
147 JHP.............943 FPS / 290 energy 62 momentum
As one can see the 9mm is not at all a slouch round by any means. The +P 124 grain is doing the same or better than the 125 grain 357 from a 2 inch barrel revolver. If you calculate the energy per square inch and the momentum per square inch you get an overlapping number spread between the 9 and the 40.
The 9 mm has come a long way. However I believe the 40 is right there where you want a personal defense round to be. Not too mild but not too hot and a good caliber and weight of bullet. I see no reason to shun the 40.
These are velocity numbers from Gun Test Magazine.
From a 3 1/2 inch barrel Glock 26:
115 FMJ...........1009 FPS / 260 energy 52 momentum
124 JHP +P.......1149 FPS / 364 energy 63 momentum
147 JHP.............943 FPS / 290 energy 62 momentum
As one can see the 9mm is not at all a slouch round by any means. The +P 124 grain is doing the same or better than the 125 grain 357 from a 2 inch barrel revolver. If you calculate the energy per square inch and the momentum per square inch you get an overlapping number spread between the 9 and the 40.
The 9 mm has come a long way. However I believe the 40 is right there where you want a personal defense round to be. Not too mild but not too hot and a good caliber and weight of bullet. I see no reason to shun the 40.
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