Whats a good target 9mm?

[firestar]

I have just entered a pistol league and I want a target gun that shoot the 9mm. I want adjustable sights and a nice SA trigger but it can have a DA trigger also.

What is a good one for less than $600 used or maybe new? I have heard good things about the SIG 210 but that is out of my price range.

 

[Handy]

There are some target model Benelli B76S s on sale at gunsamerica for $595. Fixed barrel, weighted, the works. Fixed barrels are such an immediate improvement over everything else I would think this would do it for you.

Talk them down in price.

 

[kalibear45]

Those Springfield "Loaded" 9mm 1911s (oxymoron?) look mighty nice...

 

[CWL]

Look into the CZ line of pistols.

 

[Zak Smith]

Specific suggestions, in no particular order:

CZ-75B-SA: light single-action trigger, fixed sights
CZ-85 COMBAT: adjustable trigger, adjustable sights

Those two can be had "new" for $450 for te 85 COMBAT, and around $400 for the 75B-SA.

-z

 

[Shmackey]

Depends on how "target" you want your target gun. Paper punching, combat-style competition, or bullseye? For the first two, almost any good handgun with adjustable sights will work. That CZ SA sure seems like a good deal.

 

[Zak Smith]

Shmackey,

I'm curious how one would "spec" a 9mm "Bullseye" pistol differently than a paper-punching or IDPA-style pistol?

If anyone here is interested in trying out a CZ-75B-SA in the Northern Colorado area, let me know and we can arrange it. Mine only has a trigger job and new sights.

-z

 

[Shmackey]

Zak,

You'd basically have to get someone to make you a 9mm 1911 that can hold the kinds of groups you need or you could go with a good Sig 210 (or...see below). I don't know anything about those Benellis but they're interesting.

Obviously, this would be for the "centerfire" leg; most folks who don't just use their .45s will use a .3x of some sort, but there is nothing about a 9mm that precludes a 3" gun. For instance, Clark will make you this 9mm gun that holds 2.5" groups at 50 yards.

Now, from what I hear, there are some guys who can make the army M9 shoot unreal groups, and people are using them in Bullseye. I haven't seen one, and I have to assume that they also do some serious work on the triggers. If someone knows about this whole Beretta-Bullseye connection, please clue me in. I think I read something about it online in Gun Tests a while ago.

 

[Zak Smith]

Les Baer will guarantee 1.5"@50 yards for an extra couple hundred bucks.

(And although I plan to buy a "nice" 9mm 1911 in the next couple years, I'd be better off to buy an extra $200 of ammo and shoot it...)

-z

 

[Shmackey]

Yep, Baer will do it. I guess I should refrain from saying "Bullseye pistol" and start saying "sub-3-inch-at-50-yards pistol." 'Cause that's the whole idea. If your gun can't do that, you can't compete (in the "competitive" sense of the word, not the "show up" sense of the word) in Bullseye.

You can compete in IDPA just fine without a sub-3" gun, which is why I drew the distinction.

It kind of bugs me when people say "my target gun shoots better than I can" and settle like that. If your target gun can't hold down groups the size of your smallest target (be it an x-ring or otherwise), then you'll never know why you missed--you could have a perfect hold and shoot a 7.

The guy at bullseyepistol.com is much better at explaining the need for an accurate gun than I am.

 

[firestar]

Would the CZs really be competitive? I like the sound of a single action CZ-75 with adjustable sights.

I shot for the 1st time tonight (1st time ever in any type of official competition) and I saw the cash that some people had in there pistols.

The league is a ceterfire pistol at 50ft. We can use iron sights only (there is a red dot leauge but I am not in it) and that is about it.

I took serveral guns to see how I did with each one. It is a real eye opener when you do this in competition vs. just blasting at tin cans outside.

I shot a CZ-40, Ruger P95 and a Ruger Speed Six .357 with 4" bbl. I did the best with the .357 but the CZ-40 was not far behind, it is my friends gun and with practice I think I could better with it. That is why the CZ line appeal to me right now. If I could get a CZ-75 to shoot as well as a .357, I would be happy.

Next week I will shoot my Beretta 92fs and S&W 36-1 with 3"bbl. I will let you know which one comes out on top. I think I will bring the Speed Six to shoot if the other two don't fare too well.

I REALLY wish I had my S&W 586 back.:banghead: I traded it for the Beretta (which I love) but I want both now.

 

[Zak Smith]

Well, I'm sorry to say that I haven't done the careful research to determine just how accurate my various CZ's are. I normally shoot at 7-10 yards, and the -SA can shoot through the same hole if I do it all properly.

CZ's come with a test target from the factory, with 6 shots fired.

My 75B-SA reported a dispersion area (max center-to-center) of 3.7" at 25 meters (27.3 yards), which would be 6.8" @ 50 yards.

My 85 COMBAT reported a dispersion of 2.3" @ 25m (27.3y), which would be 4.3" @ 50 yards.

This was done with S&B ammo, nothing special.

In this TFL thread, I discussed the relative advantages of the various CZ's: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137943
(look for the post by "smithz")

The 75B-SA trigger will be lighter and probably better than the regular 75B trigger. The 85 COMBAT trigger has no firing pin block to deal with, so it can have better reset and smoother take-up. The adjustable sights on the 85 COMBAT are very nice.

To get the best of both, I'm having the CZ "Champion" single-action-only trigger/sear and low-mass speed hammer put in my 85 COMBAT.

To have adjustable sights put on the 75B-SA, you will either need to have the slide milled, or have the LPA set that goes past the rear of the slide installed.

-z

 

[stevec]

My guess is that short of a revolver, a CZ-75SA will be best best price/performance option. The thing to beware of is that the CZ-75SA's polymer trigger seems to be a source of problems. Between that and the CZ-97b barrel bushing issues, I'm starting to think CZ needs to do more long term durability testing on their guns.

You could see about finding a BHP GP Comp, they can sometimes be found for under $600 if you shop around. They would be an excellent bullseye gun - long sight radius, adjustable trigger, tight, consistent barrel lockup.

The last option might be to pick up a 9mm 1911 or BHP/clone for cheap, and get a trigger job and new barrel fitted. I'm guessing $350 for that work, so you'd have to get the 1911 or BHP for around $250. I think you can get a NIB Arcus BHP clone for $220. FEG's have gone up in price, but you may still be able to find one for $250 or so.

 

[JoeHatley]

Might want to check out the S&W 952...

Joe

 

[mr. e]

I have to chime in on a CZ-85 Combat as a low cost target pistol. I'm a hand loader, and mine is consistently accurate with just about any ammo that I use.

I also like the consistency of the trigger. There is a little creep, but once that is taken up the trigger breaks cleanly with any increased pressure. This is out of the box. I'm sure it could be improved with a little work.

By the way, Shmackey and Zak, did you get your CZ trigger work done in Colroado? I'm in Colorado Springs, and I'd like the name of your 'smith.

 

[BHP9]

If you want an entry level gun you could use just about anything but if you want to become serious about winning in competition you will have to pay big bucks to be competitive.

In other words if you want to play the game seriously you will have to plan on spending a lot of money there is just no way around it.

Bullseye guns built up on 1911 style frames generally shoot 2 inchs at 50 yards and anything less and you are not competitive. Even in the pistol games that do not demand such accurate weapons the man with the super accurate gun is still at an advantage compared to the people competing with lesser guns.

Many things will factor into your winning. Good trigger pulls are a must and they do not come on factory out of the box guns. Most of the the time super accuracy doesn't either. Match barrels that are hand fitted for superior lock up, slide to frame fit, precision repeatable adjustable sights, custom grips to fit your hand, checkered front and back straps and a mirad of other modifications often become necessary so the gun fits you and you do not have to adapt yourself to the weapon.

It is tempting to say just order a factory race gun but when you get serious about competition no factory weapon is probably going to fullfill your needs. The more you compete the more you will decide which modifications will work best for you.

You must not only be willing to spend the money but what is more important you must have the time to practice constantly. Most people at first will see a dramatic rise in their skill followed by a leveling off in which they do not seem to get any better. This is the point where most people quit competition because it is at this point where you must practice a lot to get just a little bit better and most people do not have the time or money in which to do so. It takes a lot of work and dedication to the sport to excell and most people are unwilling to make this big sacrifice both in terms of money and time in order to be one of the best.

 

[Russ]

CZ 85 Combat. Adjustible sights. Should be had for around $500.

 

[10-Ring]

A buddy just picked up a SA loaded 1911 in 9mm w/ adjustable sights...NICE! and, it's a good base if you want to make any mods in the future.

 

[Bob Locke]

What are Browning High Powers going for these days?

Those SA triggers can be slicked up pretty nicely, and I know you can get them with adjustable sights.

Probably be worth the search, IMO.

 

[Zak Smith]

mr.e,

I had my trigger job done by Mike, the CZ-USA gunsmith. He also swapped out the plastic (SA) trigger for the steel "Champion" trigger for free.

-z

 

[Zak Smith]

New BHP = around $550.
Used BHP = around $450.

-z

 

[Baron Holbach]

I highly recommend the Glock 34.

 

[Handy]

Here's what I was talking about:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976300881.htm

Target version of the combat 9mm. Innovative mechanically delayed blowback system (same idea as the HK P9S) gives you a fixed barrel and low recoil.

I have a hard time imagining any Hi-Power, CZ or 1911 touching this thing for accuracy. The barrel doesn't recoil and the sight radius is long.

 

[Zak Smith]

Handy,

Wow! Thanks for the link. What kind of measured accuracy can one expect out of one of these?

-z

 

[Handy]

I have no personal experience with the Benelli, I've just been thinking about them awhile. But I do have two other fixed barrel delayed blowback guns, an HK P9S and a P7M8. Both have 4" barrels but will hold an inch at 25 yards off the bench. With the P9S I've shot 8" groups at 100 yards with combat sights.The Benelli has a longer barrel, a weight, and most importantly, a much longer sight radius.

I don't think most pistoleros realize what a boon fixed barrels are. Even the disgusting Hi-Point delivers terrific accuracy because its accuracy isn't dependant on where the barrel ends up. The Steyr GB and even VP70 where also known for their intrinsic accuracy. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that the Benelli pistol will perform the same or much better.

The B76 is an esoteric one-off that is no longer being made and may not feed every kind of bullet (Benelli is still around for support, though). But for a bullseye gun on a budget, I can't imagine a better setup for $600. It is the equivalent of an HK P9S Target for $1400 less. I would definitely go this way for an auto.

Otherwise, get a revolver and shoot .38 Wadcutter.