Whats a No 1 Mark III worth 303 british
- Thread starter grubbylabs
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Devonai
Member
Can we get a look at the cartouche on the stock?
grubbylabs
Member
The what?
grubbylabs
Member
P5 Guy
Member
Cartouche is the inspector's acceptance mark.
Stamped on the wood stock or on the metal of the receiver or barrel to prove the rifle.
Stamped on the wood stock or on the metal of the receiver or barrel to prove the rifle.
cslinger
Member
If you can find any markings on the wood or metal take good pics. Where it was made, when etc. can have big effects on value.
grubbylabs
Member
grubbylabs
Member
they match
Sunray
Member
How's the headspace? Lee-Enfields have been assembled by the thousand out of parts bins with zero QC. Including not ensuring the headspace is correct. Proof of good headspace is a selling point.
Does the S/N on the bolt handle match the receiver's S/N? Anything stamped on the stock disk? Any of the Brit commercial proofing stamps? The 'BNP' etc.?
Post a better quality picture of the first right hand picture. Need to see where and when it was made. Or just post what is stamped there.
Proof marks only mean it was proofed when it was made. Says nothing about it now.
Mind you, from just the pictures and assuming good headspace, I think you have a $500ish rifle depending on where it was made. $300ish if it's Indian. Local values do vary a great deal though. May be little interest in Idaho.
Does the S/N on the bolt handle match the receiver's S/N? Anything stamped on the stock disk? Any of the Brit commercial proofing stamps? The 'BNP' etc.?
Post a better quality picture of the first right hand picture. Need to see where and when it was made. Or just post what is stamped there.
Proof marks only mean it was proofed when it was made. Says nothing about it now.
Mind you, from just the pictures and assuming good headspace, I think you have a $500ish rifle depending on where it was made. $300ish if it's Indian. Local values do vary a great deal though. May be little interest in Idaho.
grubbylabs
Member
there is a 43 a FR and I think its a 39 nd the No 1 Mk III
grubbylabs
Member
I have not shot the gun
Grubbylabs,
Right now, milsurps from WWI due to its centennial and WWII are hot. The few being imported are in rough condition and prices are heading higher for the few well preserved rifles in original matching condition. $350 to $400 might have been the price in 2008 or so but now even pedestrian non-matching beaters and parts guns in well worn condition are getting that if they still have most of their military hardware and wood. If the rest of your rifle is as good as the pictures that you posted in metal and wood condition, then yours is quite a bit above the normal ones seen outside of specialty shops.
FWIW, the exterior of rifle appears in vg or better and from what I can see the wood is good on it. It also appears blued and has the earlier round cocking piece on the bolt. On the buttstock and under the wrist of the rifle, you will often see cartouches (impressed markings into the wood designating inspections and sometimes service/rearsenaling actions) and sometimes on the forearm depending on the length of service. You should also see a round brass disk secured with a screw on the right side of the buttstock (from behind). Markings on this indicate unit and sometimes mfg. A detractor from value would be the name of the importer stamped into the metal.
If you look on the left of the receiver, you should see a date and who manufactured it. It will also tell and whether your model number is the No. 1, Mk. 3 or is marked Mk. 3*. (In 1916 the British simplified mfg. by eliminating the magazine cutoff but some 1916's are Mk. 3 and some Mk. 3*).
Now, if your is an all original matching bolt, excellent bore, original bluing, vg or better condition, and is one of the early models of the SMLE, then I would expect more like $500 to $600 from a sale to individual collector (less to a dealer) or possibly more depending on exactly when it was made, rearsenaling, any additional items such as bayonets, slings, etc. and whether you have any idea of how and when your family acquired it.
One way to tell if you have a rare one is to buy the Stratton book on Amazon which goes into details about mfg. dates, parts identification, etc. which may help you establish whether you have a rare variant. See http://www.amazon.com/British-Enfield-Internet-Workshop-collectors/dp/1882391160 It is about $20 on amazon.
BTW, unless you plan to testfire it, I would probably not bother checking the rifle's headspace as WWI SMLE's are known for having generous chambers and many gunsmiths today are unfamiliar how to measure it with Enfields and Krags because they headspace on the rim and not the shoulder. If you know one who has been in the business since the 60's and 70's, then more of them will know how to do it correctly.
If you must check it either to testfire or to get top dollar for it, buy a coin type gauge and employ a field gauge and a no go gauge-see http://www.okiegauges.com/--a set will run you about $35 plus s/h. These do not require the removal of the extractor but follow the directions exactly. You can damage the gages and incorrectly measure headspace by forcing the bolt closed on a gage.
Removal of the extractor is necessary to use non-coin headspace gages, which is a pain without the proper tools. and most common gages sold are not mil-spec anyway. The Brit's did not reload their brass--e.g. Berdan primed so they really did not worry too much about generous chambers.
Sorry about the long post but good luck. BTW, if you have a rare variant, might want to check out milsurps.com forum or gunboards.com for truly expert opinions. Peter Laidler on milsurps is a particular expert along with Brian from BDL Ltd if I remember.
BTW, I am rebuilding an SMLE right now of WWI vintage which requires me to check dealers places like Simpsons or Liberty Tree Collectors for reference photos.
Right now, milsurps from WWI due to its centennial and WWII are hot. The few being imported are in rough condition and prices are heading higher for the few well preserved rifles in original matching condition. $350 to $400 might have been the price in 2008 or so but now even pedestrian non-matching beaters and parts guns in well worn condition are getting that if they still have most of their military hardware and wood. If the rest of your rifle is as good as the pictures that you posted in metal and wood condition, then yours is quite a bit above the normal ones seen outside of specialty shops.
FWIW, the exterior of rifle appears in vg or better and from what I can see the wood is good on it. It also appears blued and has the earlier round cocking piece on the bolt. On the buttstock and under the wrist of the rifle, you will often see cartouches (impressed markings into the wood designating inspections and sometimes service/rearsenaling actions) and sometimes on the forearm depending on the length of service. You should also see a round brass disk secured with a screw on the right side of the buttstock (from behind). Markings on this indicate unit and sometimes mfg. A detractor from value would be the name of the importer stamped into the metal.
If you look on the left of the receiver, you should see a date and who manufactured it. It will also tell and whether your model number is the No. 1, Mk. 3 or is marked Mk. 3*. (In 1916 the British simplified mfg. by eliminating the magazine cutoff but some 1916's are Mk. 3 and some Mk. 3*).
Now, if your is an all original matching bolt, excellent bore, original bluing, vg or better condition, and is one of the early models of the SMLE, then I would expect more like $500 to $600 from a sale to individual collector (less to a dealer) or possibly more depending on exactly when it was made, rearsenaling, any additional items such as bayonets, slings, etc. and whether you have any idea of how and when your family acquired it.
One way to tell if you have a rare one is to buy the Stratton book on Amazon which goes into details about mfg. dates, parts identification, etc. which may help you establish whether you have a rare variant. See http://www.amazon.com/British-Enfield-Internet-Workshop-collectors/dp/1882391160 It is about $20 on amazon.
BTW, unless you plan to testfire it, I would probably not bother checking the rifle's headspace as WWI SMLE's are known for having generous chambers and many gunsmiths today are unfamiliar how to measure it with Enfields and Krags because they headspace on the rim and not the shoulder. If you know one who has been in the business since the 60's and 70's, then more of them will know how to do it correctly.
If you must check it either to testfire or to get top dollar for it, buy a coin type gauge and employ a field gauge and a no go gauge-see http://www.okiegauges.com/--a set will run you about $35 plus s/h. These do not require the removal of the extractor but follow the directions exactly. You can damage the gages and incorrectly measure headspace by forcing the bolt closed on a gage.
Removal of the extractor is necessary to use non-coin headspace gages, which is a pain without the proper tools. and most common gages sold are not mil-spec anyway. The Brit's did not reload their brass--e.g. Berdan primed so they really did not worry too much about generous chambers.
Sorry about the long post but good luck. BTW, if you have a rare variant, might want to check out milsurps.com forum or gunboards.com for truly expert opinions. Peter Laidler on milsurps is a particular expert along with Brian from BDL Ltd if I remember.
BTW, I am rebuilding an SMLE right now of WWI vintage which requires me to check dealers places like Simpsons or Liberty Tree Collectors for reference photos.
Sunray
Member
WWI SMLE's are known for having bolt heads swapped for no apparent reason too. Not all.303 Brit ammo was Berdan primed either.
Removal of the extractor is not necessary with proper headspace gauges. You just slip the gauge under the extractor and close the bolt.
The .okiegauges.com/--a link is dead. Works without the /--a though.
Removal of the extractor is not necessary with proper headspace gauges. You just slip the gauge under the extractor and close the bolt.
The .okiegauges.com/--a link is dead. Works without the /--a though.
tark
Member
We got every pic except the most important one. The right side of the butt socket, the part under the bolt handle when the bolt is closed. It should have the crown, the number and mark of the rifle, the manufacturer's name, the initials of who ever was sitting on the throne at the time the rifle was made and a date.
Your gun appears to be a standard #1 Mk III, made without the volley sights and the magazine cutoff, which functioned exactly the opposite of the way it SHOULD have functioned and was universally removed and thrown in the nearest pond.
There are so many different things to consider when trying to put a value on a gun, but the bore is always a good place to start. A rough, pitted bore is not necessarily a kiss of death. I have a Krag with a bore that would make a hyena vomit. It shoots two inch groups at 100 yards.
Does everything work? The safety, and magazine should always be checked. Some Enfields feed smoothly from the mag, some don't.
Don't forget to remove the buttplate. You would be shocked at some of the things soldiers hide under there....
Your gun appears to be a standard #1 Mk III, made without the volley sights and the magazine cutoff, which functioned exactly the opposite of the way it SHOULD have functioned and was universally removed and thrown in the nearest pond.
There are so many different things to consider when trying to put a value on a gun, but the bore is always a good place to start. A rough, pitted bore is not necessarily a kiss of death. I have a Krag with a bore that would make a hyena vomit. It shoots two inch groups at 100 yards.
Does everything work? The safety, and magazine should always be checked. Some Enfields feed smoothly from the mag, some don't.
Don't forget to remove the buttplate. You would be shocked at some of the things soldiers hide under there....
Steel Horse Rider
Member
It appears to me that the handguard is not original with the rifle, but if the bore is not in too bad of condition (rifling intact and no large areas of pitting) I would gladly pay $400 to $500 for it.
lysanderxiii
Member
May mot have anything on the right side of the socket.
If it is an Indian rifle, the Crown marking were scrubbed off after Indian Independance...
The left side marking are typical of Ishapore repairs, looks like it was factory repaired (FR) in 1939 and 1943.
krinko
Member
Lysander is on the right track---it is an Indian SMLE.
The proof mark on the left side of the receiver ring reads "GRI" under the crown and this stands for "Georgius Rex Imperator".
In English that's "George, King and Emperor", a title for British monarchs used only in India.
The right hand side of the buttsocket should be blank in an FR rifle of this period---so there will be no way to discover it's origin. To a collector then, this rifle will only ever be an Indian rebuild and of limited interest.
As far as value is concerned, if the numbers match on the receiver, bolt, barrel, back sight and nosecap with no grinding and remarking and the bore is bright, the $300 mentioned by OHeir could be possible.
Or you might luck into a greenhorn.
-----krinko
The proof mark on the left side of the receiver ring reads "GRI" under the crown and this stands for "Georgius Rex Imperator".
In English that's "George, King and Emperor", a title for British monarchs used only in India.
The right hand side of the buttsocket should be blank in an FR rifle of this period---so there will be no way to discover it's origin. To a collector then, this rifle will only ever be an Indian rebuild and of limited interest.
As far as value is concerned, if the numbers match on the receiver, bolt, barrel, back sight and nosecap with no grinding and remarking and the bore is bright, the $300 mentioned by OHeir could be possible.
Or you might luck into a greenhorn.
-----krinko
Sergei Mosin
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Concur w/krinko - Indian rebuild, $300 tops, probably not that much. If trying to trade at a store you'd be lucky to get $150 trade-in credit.
Sebastian the Ibis
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I just sent you a PM.
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