What's next for the Army: After the Individual Carbine Competition

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The services are heavily wedded to the M-16/M-4 and M-9. There are contracts in effect that deliver thousands more of each to the DOD in the future.

A new weapon system is not in the works.
 
"the united states government is in arrears and the DOD is their patsy whenever budget cuts are on the table, in what world would the military be able to switch rifles and calibers?"

The real question I'd like answered, is why the companies keep showing up like eager puppies every year when they've been doing this "Competition" for, what, decades? The .gov and the DOD would do us a service to disband even the pretense of a "immediate replacement" to the M4 so they could reassign the contractors/procurement guys to something worthwhile :rolleyes:

At this point, I think the ICC is more of a trade show, where companies can peddle their guns (and kiss important buns) with the hope of a decent-sized contract for some random special ops team, which they will then use to market an semi-auto equivalent to civilians. I suppose it serves a purpose in at least keeping the brass abreast of developments in the small arms world.

I'm more interested in what France will be doing in the near future as a rifle replacement. Their FAMAS's are clapped out even by FAMAS standards at this point, and something is gonna have to replace them real soon (since France has to at least look like they can't be steamrolled in five hours :neener:). In all seriousness, someone will soon be getting a very large contract to service that country's needs. AUG, SCAR, ARX, M4, or Tavor; one of them will be getting a big leg up, soon.

Oh, did you hear? They're gonna replace the M9 pistol with.. "something" in the near future as well --rumor is it's a 1911 ;)

"Our biggest enemy is not a person or entity; it's our debt"
Yeah, but so long as we have more guns than our creditors...:evil:

TCB
 
Sure it is fun to read about key units having the SCAR or HK416 but these are unlikely to be adopted by the bulk of the military.

Because they shouldn't be. Both of those rifles are about .0001% better than the M4, and not worth a penny of the taxpayer's money.
 
The SCAR-H ie Mk17 is a great weapon that fills a need. However the M4 is a fantastic service weapon. It doesn't need replacing.

I, nor anyone I know, have had problems with M855 but I know it can happen. Therefor a new bullet would be a good idea. But we don't need to spend a crap load of money since the USMC already figured out the Mk318 works well.
 
I was just thinking about this the other day. It was just after watching monday's Tac TV with Larry Vickers. He shot a mini van with 62gr 5.56 penetrater tip, .308/7.62, and .338 Lapua. The penetrater disintegrated before exit but the other two held together and had enough power to knock the AR500 steel plate for a loop.

With all of the polymers, hammer forging, alloys, and modern manufacturing processes I think another option is ammo. We could outfit soldiers with lighter 7.62 weapons. As others have stated "what is old is new again". Why not go back to 7.62 for the average grunt? Full auto fire isn't a need for them, we have the SAW and M240B for that. We also have new muzzle devices that make 7.62 much more controllable. We found out that we actually need long distance weapons in A'stan and Iraq. We also have a ready supply of 7.62 in stock.

We could also use a shorter weapon as a 7.62 rifle could be shorter and still be as (probably more) effective, reducing weight even more. If we switched weapons we could even move to .243 if 7.62 is considered to heavy. Trying to make the 5.56 do what it can't is the mistake. It doesn't penetrate many hard targets (brick, wood, car doors) well. I don't think we need to switch operating systems (the AR family) just that we need to switch to the AR10 with a much more powerful round. Polymer mags, thinner hammer forged barrels, and shorter (12" or 14") barrels would all make the caliber switch a very viable option and possibly not add much if any weight. These are just my recent thoughts, opinions may vary:)
 
Interesting stuff to read on this thread. Does anyone have an opinion on caseless ammunition?
 
Why not go back to 7.62 for the average grunt?

It's easy for someone to pick the .308 in a video game; or some TV commentator to say that XYZ is better because it penetrates deeper... when all he did was walk up with his camera crew, pull the trigger, and evaluate.

Go walk 15 miles with 60 lbs on your back; do some running, drag a few 180 pound sleds (to replicate dragging injured buddies to cover), do some grass drills (diving for cover, then getting up and running again). Then answer your own question. HEAVIER gear is rarely the correct answer when you are counting every oz of weight.

What non-military people don't seem to understand is that the 'starting' point is:
30-50 pounds for body armor and Kevlar helmet, uniform items, boots, etc. Add 5-8 lbs for weapon. Add 10 lbs for ammo. Add 5 lbs for water. Right there for minimum load, you're at 50 lbs on the low end. Soldiers quickly get into the 80 lbs range when you add any other extra SAW ammo, water, radios, dry clothes, sleep system, food, rain poncho, etc. When you have to carry 50, 60, 80, 100 lbs for a few miles, especially in the 110+ degree heat in Iraq of Afghanistan or other armpits of the world (Vietnam anyone?), you begin losing combat effectiveness. A Soldier with a .308 who has heat exhaustion and cannot fire is less effective and a liability than a Soldier who can fire his 5.56 accurately.

Soldiers also have to bound quickly and move to maneuver either in advance or retreat, flanking maneuvers, etc. Maneuvering is often more effective than just pounding away with a larger weapon.

Imagine a sustained firefight (with no resupply of ammo) against many spread out insurgents in the middle of nowhere. Would you rather have 100 rounds of .308, or twice that in 5.56, given they are both lethal. Now multiply that across your entire platoon of 30 Soldiers. 3000 rounds vs. 6000 rounds? The answer, again, is obvious. Combat is more about suppressive fire than actual aimed fire. I read a stat that shows an alarming number of expended rounds per kill.... Effective suppressive fire means that the enemy's heads are down, and they cannot maneuver against you or flee or shoot at you. When they are not shooting at you, well that is a good thing. But if you run out of ammo, you can't shoot nor can you suppress... So... A Soldier with no ammo is less effective than a Soldier with some 5.56. And sitting pinned down is a tactical error that will get you killed, once your position is fixed for indirect fire. You must lay down fire (which spends lots of ammo) and maneuver a force closer. You need fire teams, and assault teams. The advantage goes to a lighter faster moving force with more ammo for suppressive fire.

Finally, read my above post about costs of platforms, ammo, and already lack of training due to budgets.
 
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The SCAR-H ie Mk17 is a great weapon that fills a need.

Which is what? I'm sure it's a need that could be filled just as well with an M14 or AR-10 variant that we already have plenty of in our inventory at half the price.
 
I'd like to see some info on how many soldiers lose their lives due to 5.56's short-comings.

I suspect it's considerably lower than the amount of soldiers saved by being able to sustain themselves during extended firefights.
 
Leadcounsel... both of your posts are well written and right on the money...

As an additional piece of data..... I qualified with an M14 all those years ago (basic, 1968 Sand Hill, Ft Benning) and had to work hard to hit expert (that weapon kicked my skinny 135lb butt - no lie). Before I eventually deployed to VN three years later everything was switched up and I then qualified with M16 (ten times easier than the heavy M14....). Yes, the old M14 is a better distance weapon and it packs a great punch out to 500 meters or better but none of that is without cost as already noted....

As far as military "procurement" I'm betting that the R&D, the backroom maneuvering, and the usual waste of money was already happening in the Civil War... and nothing much will change in the future. My current concerns, along with our terrible debt (thanks a lot Washington....) is our country's history of dismantling our war fighting capability so thoroughly in peace time that we always get caught flat-footed when the next conflict breaks out.... These days getting caught un-prepared might be fatal.
 
The contact I still have at Aberdeen told me several months back that the Army canceled all testing of the candidates as soon as they finished endurance firing and did not do anything in adverse conditions: mud, cold, heat, humidity, dust, salt fog etc. This is where you find out if your system is combat capable is when it goes to -65F and + 160F etc

About anything will work as long as the conditions are like shooting at your gun club.

You can thanks the <deleted> dogooders for the new bullets. Seems they are deathly afraid of lead contamination. This lead to the bullets with no lead.
Did you guys know the environmentalist just got the last lead smelting facility in the US closed down in Missouri? They are going to have to ship the ore to Mexico now and they extract the lead and send it back.

Now would anyone like to know which political party is supported by the <deleted> do gooders? This is what you get when you don't go vote.
 
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Not going to happen. The AR15/M16 family of weapons are here to stay until a real leap in small arms technology presents itself. 5.56 is here to stay as well until something really innovative comes along.

All the "new" assault rifles slated to be the next replacement for the M16 family were largely based on the AR18. They did nothing better than whats currently fielded other than new shape and more use of polymers. Firearms really haven't changed all that much in the last 100 years. No major advancements in ammunition technology.

The M16/M4 needs to go thru another PIP program. The HK 416 should be used as a baseline.
 
Polymer mags, thinner hammer forged barrels, and shorter (12" or 14") barrels would all make the caliber switch a very viable option and possibly not add much if any weight.

The difference in weight between 5.56 and 7.62 is substantial, far too much to be made up by loosing 2lbs of weight off the weapon. The 7.62 projectile alone is twice the weight of the 5.56 projectile. These are just rough numbers, but 300rds of 5.56 loose is about 8lbs, 300rds of 7.62 is about 16lbs.

You can thanks the <deleted> dogooders for the new bullets. Seems they are deathly afraid of lead contamination. This lead to the bullets with no lead.

I used M855 in combat in Iraq and M855A1 in combat in Afghanistan, both worked. The A1 was just as accurate and penetrated barriers better while still doing substantial soft tissue damage.


My opinion on the M4 is that it isn't perfect but nothing presented so far is good enough to justify the costs of replacement. I could see a retrofit program to upgrade to a gas piston system being beneficial, but not required.
 
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Right on LeadCounsel. In my experiences in Iraq leading an Infantry Platoon no targets were engaged with individual weapons beyond the 2-250 meter area. Nor did we engage anything with crew served weapons beyond the 300 meter range max.

The need for a larger, heavier bullet with longer range isn't a real one. We have organic assets able to take out those targets. DMR anyone? And while not every Platoon has a DMR, you'll have a few individual weapons outfitted with ACOG that will get you the ability to take out the longer distance targets. Or at least to fix them while you can leverage more casualty producing weapons on the battlefield such as Company or Battalion mortars. Or if you're lucky artillery support.

The need to engage a target 400 or 500 meters out with a 7.62 rifle? Battle drill 1 very clearly gives you the ability to take out an enemy. The lead squad suppresses the object with fires while a trail squad maneuvers on the enemy and destroys them. Is there risk involved? Sure. It's a gunfight. But doctrinally you suppress the target and maneuver on it. It's not an easy task to return fire while you're being fired at by 9 bubba's with M4's and SAWs. If it's a harder target, Grenadiers can also leverage the M203. If it is a big enough risk the Platoon can bring the weapons squad up and suppress with M240's.

My point is, no matter what individual weapon we are using on the front line, our base line method for taking out the enemy won't change. If we are all running around out there with XM8s, will we be able to suppress the enemy any better while a trail squad maneuvers? 416s? SCAR17s? M14s? These tactics were the same with M14s and M60s in the 60's. We just have the ability to carry more ammunition to the fight now that we use 5.56.

Is the M4 perfect? Heck no. Is it a perfectly serviceable platform that has decades of good service and has demonstrated that it is modular enough to rise to any task? I think it has.

I close this out with it's only my opinion and that I've never served in Afghanistan. My observations of that environment are academic. My observations in extreme rural, suburban, and rural Iraq are first hand.
 
I suspect that we will hold off on a totally new design until something using caseless or "smart" ammo is ready.

Mike
 
You guys are living in the past...

If this administration can grease some left-wing donors' palms and drive us further into debt with a procurement we don't need nor can afford, especially during the castration, I mean the sequestration, he, um, I mean they, engineered the Commander-in-Chief, um, I mean they, will inevitably do it of course.
 
Which is what? I'm sure it's a need that could be filled just as well with an M14 or AR-10 variant that we already have plenty of in our inventory at half the price.
The Mk17 is a light weight battle rifle that is accurate enough to be a DMR. An AR10 can serve the same role but I doubt it is half the price.

Also having worked with the M14 EBRs in Iraq I was not impressed. My M16 DMR was more accurate and more reliable. The M14 is a good rifle but ones that have been mothballed and then rebuilt and then not supported is not a good idea.
 
I have no idea whether XYZ is more effective and even if so, how much more, nor do I know what if any drawbacks it presents.

What I do know is that it costs taxpayers multi-billions of dollars to run these tests for several years on testing the next 'widget' and more times than not the next 'widget' comes up short. Tanks, planes, weapon systems, etc. At some point we need to just say 'enough,' what we have works fine. And by the way, current events and suggested future events mean we are not fighting conventional standing militaries wearing hard body armor. Hence why the arguments to cut back on tanks and jets. Instead, we are fighting insurgents dressed in civilian clothing. In my multiple Iraq deployments, I never saw a dead insurgent wearing any armor. So the need for a 'better bullet' is almost zero. And consider IF we did switch. We have probably millions of 5.56 uppers that we would need to replace, and a huge infrastructure of contracts for bullets and inventory and such. Seems with the lack of efficiency such a change over would cost tens of billions of dollars, in a time we cannot afford it. And now there's news about spending millions changing the Marine Corp cap. Unbelievable waste. These people need to be fired for being totally financially irresponsible. Officers and leaders are charged with guarding the taxpayers money to prevent fraud, waste and abuse.

I also understand intimately the concept of training to fight future wars not past wars. Our biggest enemy is not a person or entity; it's our debt. We must stop hemoraging money on silly pet projects like the XM8. How many billions did we waste on a weapon that was never fielded? Or the SCAR? Or heck even stupid uniforms that were 10 steps backward like the $5 BILLION we wasted on the ACU. So, unless we fix our debt, which is our biggest threat to national security, 5.56 vs. XYZ will be irrelevant when we can't produce them or pay our Soldiers.

Coming from the perspective where units don't have the money to effectively train Soldiers on the M4 and 5.56 more than once or twice per year, I'd say that money would be better spent training with our spears, rather than spending money testing a marginally better spear. Skills trump equipment. The reason we've been getting our butts kicked (yes, we have) in the last 4 conflicts isn't because of our lack of better equipment; it's the fact we aren't effective with what we have. An honest appraisal summary of Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan - we were better equipped and killed more of them, the wars were largely unpopular, we spent money we didn't have, the wars changed us for the worse as a nation, and while we may have won various battles, we did not decisively win these wars. North Korea is still there. Vietnam was a loss. Iraq was a tie at best, we left because we overstayed our welcome, and we accomplished little in terms of long term victory for Iraq after 8 years of war and treasure there (that couldn't have been done with a bombing campaign). And Afghanistan is a crawl to defeat, having accomplished almost nothing there in 12 years.

The search for the next magic bullet, plane, bomb, etc. should instead be re-focused on actually figuring out how to fight like real warriors. I read a stat somewhere that we are a military of 9 Admin people for every 1 infantryman. And anyone with modern military experience can tell you that we spent a disproportional amount of time on dumb regulations, paperwork, uniform nonsense, details etc. when we should be learning TTPs and how to kill people with our bare hands. We are less 'warriors' and more 'people standing around getting safety briefs on sex assault and drunk driving.'

You know that Soldiers today get significantly more time being briefed on safe sex and sex assault than they get training with their weapons. Most Soldiers get almost zero combatives training, and get to the range 2 times in a year, and never get any training to fight with a knife or bayonet. Yet, we spend HOURS or DAYS on retarded online or classes that teach you not to rape someone, not to drink and drive, filling our leave forms and the 5 pages associated with that, vehicle inspections, room inspections, and on and on and on.... we are a broken mis-prioritized military. The 5.56 is the LEAST of our problems, and frankly among the few things that actually works in the military.

I have seen and read about the most incompetent Soldiers and leaders at all levels. Asinine decisions that get people killed or are counter productive. Things that are total wastes of time. Terrible leadership with messed up priorities that literally get men dead. Until we fix these priorities, again the 5.56 vs. XYZ is meaningless.
good post but you know the govt exists to waste money and they go about things the most expensive complicated illogical torturous way the human mind can come up with. it took them 6 years to build a 200 ft bridge over a small river here and it took less then 2 years to build the empire state building
 
Fishbed77 said:
Because they shouldn't be. Both of those rifles are about .0001% better than the M4, and not worth a penny of the taxpayer's money.

It is debatable that the SCAR and HK416 are easier to maintain than the AR family. Personally a modular system like the ACR would be a better replacement for the AR in the military to fulfill a wide variety of needs. Iraq was more of an urban fight where in Afghanistan the M4s were rarely used because we were engaged at ranges beyond their capability. Saying the ground military forces don't need a longer range rifle because the fight was up close in Iraq doesn't help if we have another fight like Afghanistan.
 
all this talk about excess weight for a soldier has me confused. soldiers are bigger and supposedly stronger today but in WW11 150 lb guys carried BARs and full combat loads. it seemed they did fine with their ammo load fighting very well armed Germans with machine gun support. it seemed they did not need to spray 5000 rds at each combatant. and the guys in WW11 walked a lot more then today. men in the civil war averaging 145 lbs would march 20 miles with full load and 5ft long smokepoles. then fight a battle. it seems the army needs more training for marching with a load
 
DAPS were only required for our gunners (mounted). Considering their increased level of exposure, and the rate that MATVS were getting annihilated, they didn't complain much.

Even if the Army finds better weapons, we will never drop Beretta or Colt for standard issue stuff. They are firmly entrenched.

I don't have so much of an issue with the M4, but I think the Beretta M9 is total crap...not only based on the caliber choice but also the design of the weapon system. This gun is not intended for field use.

We generally wore 100 pounds of kit (not counting ammo you were carrying for your gunner) during dismounted missions. There are a lot of good idea fairies in the Washington DC bureaucracy that keep giving us more junk to carry. Sometimes being able to run fast or react and move quickly is more important to me than carrying all this stuff.
 
It is debatable that the SCAR and HK416 are easier to maintain than the AR family. Personally a modular system like the ACR would be a better replacement for the AR in the military to fulfill a wide variety of needs. Iraq was more of an urban fight where in Afghanistan the M4s were rarely used because we were engaged at ranges beyond their capability. Saying the ground military forces don't need a longer range rifle because the fight was up close in Iraq doesn't help if we have another fight like Afghanistan.
A Mk16/17S is just as modular as an ACR. It's barrel change system adds less weight and bulk to the rifle, unlike the ACR. Actually changing barrels on an ACR would be quicker, I'll grant you.

I had tours of both AFG and Iraq. You bring out a good point about the difference in the operating environments. Our British allies had a saying, "The Taliban ignore 5.56, respect 7.62 and fear .50 Cal." For the most part, I agree with that assessment. The M4 was effective in AFG, but you had to make sure your crew serves were well positioned to allow the squads to get forward. I had one DMR per squad with a rack grade M14, and our SOP was the DMR stayed with the fire team in support.

I don't think we need to replace the M4, or change calibers. I do think the M4 is due for an update - Something like the latest SOPMOD (Block III, I think) that gets rid of the M203 notch in the barrel.
 
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