What's the most accurate service-grade 9mm semi-auto?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Island Beretta, thanks for the link. I like real data, even if it does only represent instances of a model.

One big reason I bought the P99 was the "anti-stress" double-action trigger pull. I'm no professional and if I end up holding the weapon on someone I don't want an accidental shot. I found the long pull acceptable (for accuracy for me).
 
BHP9,

Not to come across as a jerk, but I'm glad I don't live with you.

And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

If this is seriously an issue for you, I believe you may be better off not keeping a firearm for self defense.

1. Should you "suddenly" determine that someone is not a threat, what is the big deal as you should not have been covering them with your weapon in the first place? Low ready is the rule here, especially in your own home where you are unaware who the person is.

2. If you are relying on, or depending on a long double action trigger pull to keep you from shooting someone you shouldn't shoot, there's a problem.

3. I fail to see how any of the firearms you mentioned could be safer than the squeeze cocker. They all have adequate safety measures. The only variable is the operator.

Just MHO, YMMV and all that. . .

Shake
 
So far the greatest functional liability with the P7 series of handguns is the firing pin retainer.

Any of you familiar with it knows that it looks something like the cap off an SKS cleaning kit, a cap with a hole in the center with two "L" shaped legs.

The P7 has been in service for a bit over 10 years now with the US Park Police, and the legs have been fracturing off of the caps. Apparently after several years of use, wear, and tear, the legs weaken and during firing can fracture, leaving the gun hung up.

This is now addressed during the shift weapons inspection. Any retainers that are suspect are immediately replaced.
 
is complete drivel. If you hold in the cocker, release the safety or cock the hammer, the gun is cocked. Doesn't matter how it got there. You're not making any sense at all. Why should it matter if you have a cocked Sig, 1911 or P7 in your hand?

Again you are ignoring exactly how people use these weapons. With the Hk the gun is squeezed in a moment of crisis and the finger is invariably on the trigger and so too with the glock No matter how extensive the training. If this were not true then all of the people that were shot by police who the police did not even want to shoot would still be alive today. The most recent being a lawsuit were a girl was shot by the police. I just read about it in one of the gun rags that I got this month.

More than one person has posted that they have seen police running down the street to the seen of a crime with their fingers on the trigger of both Glocks and HK's and any other service arm that they happend to be carrying. Human nature is human nature, it does not change especially under extreme stress.

The point I am trying to make is a very simple one. People are going to inadvertently put their finger on the trigger if they fell threatend. Having your finger on the trigger of a single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one example. Another is having your finger on the trigger of a hard to pull double action only pistol or a double action, single action pistol.

The problem only becomes very dangerous with pistols like the HK squeeze cocker and the Glock where the finger on the trigger of the cocked weapon is way more dangerous than any of the above examples.

WE cannot ignore the mechanical differences of these pistols and we cannot claim that human nature will suddenly change because we like a particular type of handgun and therefore tend to ignore the reality of the mechanical aspects of the weapon and how it is used in real life, not the fantasy world of the firearms forums.

Seeing is believeing and when you have been around firearms as long as I have and seen how people actually use them in real life it is far different than reading about them in the gun rags or on the internet. As Murphy's law so plainly states, "anything that can happen will happen" and unfortunately this is all to true when it comes to firearms. Under stress the brain slows down no matter how intelligent a person is and no matter how much training one receives. Sure training helps but when it goes against the human nature for survival the training will fail every time and moral considerations also go right out the window.

Case in point. During WWII veterens that I knew personally told me that when under stress they shot anything that moved including civilians and even fellow soldiers that were of their own nationality. It was the survival instinct kicking in and those that shot first and asked questions later survived and those that did not sometimes did not survive. The same mentality is at work today just as it has been at work for thousands of years. It is very evident in police work where one mistake can mean the difference between you going home or the bad guy going home.

When you have a weapon that makes it too easy to pull the trigger before the brain takes over from the immediate physical and mental fight for survival the gun goes bang before the brain actually wanted it to. This is exactly why such things as the Glock New York trigger was developed, not as good as the long hard double action pull of the double action only or double action single action but still much better than the lighter original pull of the first generation Glock. Now, what does all this have to do with the HK ? Simply this , the HK does not even have any equivlent of the Glock New York trigger making it all the more dangerous of accidental discharge and the counter argument that the gun is safe until squeeze cocked ignores the reality that under the extreme stress of life or death the gun will be squeeze cocked , ready to fire with the finger on the trigger. Once again this is human nature and the fight for survival reaction that goes into lightening quick play under such circumstances.

To ignore all of this is to ignore human nature and reality.
 
Silly person,

The P7, realistically, has two triggers that must both be pulled to fire the gun. One is light and SA, the other is the cocking lever that takes 12 lbs. to pull, similar to a DA auto.

Once again, you are excusing the culpable operator for pulling not one trigger, but two. In use, a 1911 is taken off safe and left there in the hand. If you take the safety off with your finger on the trigger, it will also fire. There is no essential difference, except of course that the P7 "safety" is much harder to disengage.


There isn't a person on this board that will back you up if you're going to insist that a P7 is less safe because it has both a trigger AND a cocking/safety lever.
 
Once again, you are excusing the culpable operator for pulling not one trigger, but two. In use, a 1911 is taken off safe and left there in the hand. If you take the safety off with your finger on the trigger, it will also fire. There is no essential difference, except of course that the P7 "safety" is much harder to disengage.

True enough but what you failed to mention was that when a person takes the safety off of a 1911 he has made the conscience decision to fire . It was a step he had to go through to fire the weapon that gives the brain the chance to kick in and say "do I want to do this" . No such step is found in the Hk. Under stress the gun is cocked and therefore it has no safety in play a the time. In the usual normal operation of the gun it is being cocked as it is drawn when the operator is under stress. It is absolutely normal to get the gun in a death like grip when one grabs on to it thereby automatically cocking this weapon and making it ready to fire even though the operator has not made the conscience decision yet to fire the weapon.

I have seen many people under stress with the 1911 and although the finger is on the trigger the thumb is riding on the manueal safety ready to disengage if the shooter wishes to fire. Now I do agree that if the person disengages the safety then the gun becomes as dangerous as the HK squeeze cocker and if a double action only gun is manuelly cocked rather than use the safer double action mode then it too becomes as dangerous as the HK. The whole point of course being that the operator under pressure has the option with the single action with safety on or double action in double action mode to operate the weapon in a far safer mode than the HK squeeze cocker. True the operatior could leave the HK uncocked but this is hardly likely in a stress senario as proved in actual use with the Police departments that used this gun. As a matter of fact it got so bad with police accidentally shooting themselves with this weapon that they actually at least attempted to teach the Police to try and draw the gun with the finger off of the trigger and also not to cock the gun on the draw something that did not work out in the harsh life or death pressures of street fighting. You can grip the hell out of a 1911 or a double action automatic as you will inevitably do when drawing under stress without putting the gun into the fire mode until A. the double action is consciously pulled through its long double action arc or the single action has had its safety thumbed down and off all which adds the extra split second that allows you to think before pulling the trigger.

As a matter of fact the most recent needless death occured with the police shooting a girl who's head accidentally bumped the officers hand which caused the Glock he was carring to dishcarge killing her. Would not have happened with the long double action arc of the double action automatic or even a single action (which few police use these days) with the safety on.

All of this basically proves that in police use or even in civilian use the double action automatic especially the double action automatic that even has a workable manuel safety is the pistol that is least likely to go off before the operator wants it to go off.

Lets face facts, if the operator has to disenaged a manuel safety and then pull the trigger through a long double action arc it is light years safer than any HK, Glock or even single action Automatic. Many people do not like this type of firearm , including yours truly, but I cannot deny that it is the safest of the automatics. It will fire only when you want it to fire, something you cannot say for certain about the HK, the Glock or the Single Action automatics.
 
On Glocks, I agree to a certain extent, which is why I use and recommend NY1 triggers.

I don't think you understand how a P7 is supposed to be employed:

With the P7, what you are describing is the incorrect use of the pistol. There is no more need to "cock on draw" as there is to take a BHP safety off on draw or cock a DA pistol. Building clearing and all that should be done with the cocking lever relaxed, not held in. When a surprise decision to fire is made, the user pulls both trigger and cocking lever; an action nearly identical to pulling a DA trigger both mechanically and ergonomically. You can't employ this method with a Cond. 1 auto because you can not reliably disengage the safety AND pull the trigger at the same time, or binding may result.

I can't make you like such a system, but in arguing against it you have pretty much built the case against every system that does not rely on a heavy DA trigger. Hopefully, you now understand that the P7 system is actually more akin to a DA auto than any other, when used in the correct manner.

And before you begin a lecture on human nature and whether gun X will be used correctly, keep in mind that all of these designs can be abused. A DA auto user can cock on draw, run around with his finger on the trigger (mistakenly trusting the heavy trigger) or even attempt to stage the trigger and hold it. All of which are just as stupid and deadly as anything you describe.

Given your predilictions, I hope you don't carry your namesake.
 
I hate to quote myself.............

...........but I see is need to be said again!

"you will note that most all P7-bashers have no idea what they are talking about and their knowledge of the weapon is limited to being able to pick one out of a police suspect line-up!"



12lbs to accuate the squeeze saftey? dude, it's 4lbs to accuate and 1lb to hold

.....but don't let actuall facts get in your way, please continue
 
This isn't really "service grade" but it is a highly accurate nine, the S&W Performance Center 952-1.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/Products/Firearms/pc/m952.htm

I have a P226 in 9mm, several Glocks in 9mm, a SA 1911A1 in 9mm, a Walther P99 in 9mm and others including the S&W PC 952-1. The S&W PC 952-1 is the most accurate of my 9s. It is also highly reliable.

I've shot a P7M8 a few times but not engough to become good with it. I've never had the pleasure of shooting a SIG P210.

Rich
 
Dude,

I don't know where you're getting your numbers. The cocker requires 1.5 pounds of pressure to hold in, according to HK (check your manual). The trigger pull is about 3 to 4 pounds, not the cocking lever.

The cocking lever certainly takes more pressure than a single action trigger does. Perhaps you meant 4 kilos? The usual figure stated is 12 pounds, but the P7 normal and tech manuals doen't list a weight.

If your cocker only takes 4 pounds to pull (less than a basic 1911 trigger) it is broken. Have it inspected.
 
wondered why

This thread was four pages long. Now I see the usual suspects are at it again.

So what the hey I'll make it worse. HK P7's are overpriced and a funky design.

If imitation is the best form of flattery why does no other manufacturer use the Squeze shlocker? Every good pistol has it's share of copy cats and clones but why not the p7? hmmmm

I would own one if it cost about 200 but anything more is a rip off. They should rename it the P7 Sucker Finder. It would be a much better pistol with conventional controls and no funky lever.

It even says it's a Gas RETARDED Blowback action.

:evil:

-bevr
 
Bevr,

Good post on the evils of progress and change. Close the patent office! Maintain the status quo!
 
Handy, breaking into a cold sweat as he stars at his computer, thinks:Uh oh, Tamara posted in disagreement. Better reverse myself before her fan club joins in.


Hell yes! Different sucks! Down with change! There is only one right way! I hate foreigners! Vote republican or you're gay! Back to the old way! Down with brand B! Put Steve Jobs to death!



Phew, I hope that holds them back. I'm just not a very good reactionary.
 
From what I am seeing, there is little difference between the best examples.
I can say from my own experience that my CZ and my SIG are both in the same general area as far as accuracy goes.
I had a MKIII BHP that may have been accurate, but the trigger was heavy as hell.
You guys can argue over a half an inch if you want to, but the fact remains that if you were to take one of each and shoot them all against each other, you would be hard pressed to be able to predict which would win.
If you are considering buying one, just get the one you like the best and cross your fingers.
 
Handy, breaking into a cold sweat as he stars at his computer, thinks:Uh oh, Tamara posted in disagreement. Better reverse myself before her fan club joins in.

Hey Handy, if it makes you fell any better I am one of your fans. This is not a joke. I mean it. I enjoy debating with you because you always remain a scholar and a gentleman. I know we do not often agree but I enjoy reading about your points of view because of the way you post them.

You probably will not belive me but you may just convince me to buy yet another HK squeeze cocker. Its one of the few 9mm's I do not currently own even though I did own two of them in the past.

Don't let the howling mob get you down. There is a lot of silent readers who probably agree with you or in my case enjoy reading your posts.
 
Dude, I see you just removed your joust about trigger pull, and have just gone to a childish challenge, which amounts to calling me a liar.


I see you used to be a TFLer as well, so I can't understand how you would say I don't have a gun that I've written about so many times. But if you want to email me, I'll provide you with a serial number and you can check with HKUSA, as I had the gun in for service 2 years ago.

While you're on the phone with them, you can ask if a 4 lbs. cocking lever is normal, and then arrange to have yours fixed. Or you could try a trigger pull gauge. (You'll note that I haven't resorted to calling YOU a liar.)

But I will go so far as to note that your knowledge of the P7 series has extended to asking if a $400 PSP is a "good deal" and claiming that the Seals use it. Very impressive knowledge.
 
I have seen a seal with one while at work. $400 PSP?? ..........what are you talking about??

I still ask the same question.
 
If you are the same DUDE from TFL who had a P99 and wanted a P7, then yes, you asked about a $400 PSP.


I answered your question by inviting you to verify my ownership with the manufacturer.


I believe Lunde, Incursion and Tamara all have P7s. PM them if you think I'm wrong about the cocking lever.
 
I'm not that 'DUDE'.......sorry
I was on the TFL for a bit though!

I've been a P7 shooter/owner since 83 and have as yet not felt the need to give HK a call. I was quoted the the 4lb/1lb number for the squeezy but never verifyed.
 
Handy,

See? You have fans, too. :) (Maybe you can convince him that the P7 isn't made "largely from cheap sheet metal stampings". ;) )

Anyhow, I was just responding to your "Newer and different is better!" post with a "Is newer and different automatically better?" one. I have a P7. It's my second one as a matter of fact. I am very, very enamoured of it; it may be my favorite semiauto. Explain to me, however, why you think it is better than a GP-35 or a 1911. ("Newer" and "different" don't count... ;) )
 
So if it in un-verified, why are you preaching it as gospel and calling me a liar in public?




Folks, sorry to have hijacked this quite reasonable thread into a P7 debate. The P7 is the only common fixed barrel "service pistol", which is the reason it is so much more mechanically accurate than other excellent pistol. That is a seperate issue than the cocking lever, lead bullets or its price tag. Again, sorry to all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top