What's the most accurate service-grade 9mm semi-auto?

[BHP9]

Forgot to mention a real sleeper of the Gun World.

ONe of the best deals is the Star Model 28 or Model 30.

These weapons were amazingly accurate often shooting right up there with the most accurate 9mm's known.

My own Model 30 shoots groups approaching that of my Sig P210 and equaling that of my High Powers.

The Star had all quality forged parts and was one of the most rugged 9mm's ever built.

The Star had an outstanding trigger pull both single and double action.

Service life was outstanding with many shooting as many as 100,000 rounds with no parts breakage. They were used in my area as rental guns at shooting ranges because they never seemed to break.

The Star had windage adjustable sights and a detachable fire control system.

Many of its design features were borrowed form the Sig-Neuhausen such as the kidney shaped barrel lug, the slide tucked inside the frame and the detachable fire control system.

It came with non-slip rubber grips.

Used prices are often very reasonable.

I lament its passage because of the demise of the state owned company, perhaps one of the very best 9mm's ever made.


The Last 3 that I bought ran $275, $325, and $350. Proving once again new guns are often much more expensive and certainly no better.

 

[Gordy Wesen]

What he said.


__________

"I'd recommend taking massive doses of vitamin B. If that doesn,t work, I'd see a doctor."

 

[JohnKSa]

That is really hard to beleive, I'm not saying I don't beleive you but from a factory gun with only a trigger job, I think that is exceptional accuracy. I think it is a rare Beretta that would do this well and you have 3 that will do this? I wish I could shoot that well or get guns that were that accurate.

I really am not mocking you because I know it is possible. There is a guy at my league that has a Para P14 and he consistantly does 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 25 yards and all it has is a trigger job. He is my hero right now.

Well, a few things:

1. I think it is exceptional--that's why I posted it. I've not found any other service grade autos that are that accurate out of the box. I'm not saying they're not out there, I just haven't bought one.

2. Only my current Beretta has a trigger job. The others were pretty much completely stock although I probably did a little light polishing here and there.

3. I keep my best targets--cut out the groups, date them, mark the ammo, gun, distance, number of rounds and put them in a file. I went and got them out and looked through them before posting. As I said, not every group was that good, nor do I keep any BAD groups in my files. Still, I think the numbers I listed are representative of the gun's capabilities (and of mine on a good day.)

4. FWIW, all of the Berettas were stainless steel. I think that the stainless pistols are a little tighter than the Bruniton finish Berettas. Part of that is that some of the "stainless" parts are plated, not truly stainless. That might make them just a tiny bit oversize which tightens things up. Part of it may be that they have to be finished a little slicker since there's no Bruniton to cover minor imperfections. I don't know, but it seems that the stainless Berettas shoot better.

5. I spent a lot of time shooting lots of different kinds of ammo through those pistols. Some (even relatively expensive ammo) made the guns (and me) look pretty bad. Some, (even relatively cheap stuff) grouped very well. Just grabbing a box of gun fodder Brand X and heading to the range isn't going to reveal the potential of the gun or the shooter.

The rest is
Stance
Grip
Sight alignment
Sight picture
Breath control
Trigger control
Follow through

Like I said, only pull the trigger when everything is perfect!

 

[Serpico]

Hasn't "fouled" me yet......

 

[Ian11]

In my hands anyways......

The Sig Sauer P226 and H&K P7/M8 are the first ones that come to my mind. They are the most accurate pistols I've ever shot (save my P220ST in .45 and a P226 in .357 SIG). A Springfield Armory "Loaded" 1911 in 9mm was very accurate too but for me the .45 ACP is the only proper load for that design And the P226 is a very durable pistol. They are not fragile guns as some people would like to lead us to believe. The arguments may sound logical but they are not based on fact or any conclusive evidence. The continuing popularity of the SIG P226 with the Navy SEALs and British SAS flies in the face of these kinds of conjecture.

The P226 and P7 designs may not be for everyone but they do what they were designed to do (and with proper care deserving of any fine equipment) and they do it VERY VERY WELL.

Other 9mm I either own, used to own, or shot extensively:

BHP MK III
Beretta 92 FS and Cougar
H&K USP and USP/C
Glock 19
SIG P228 and P229 9mm
S&W 5906

 

[PCRCCW]

All of the Hoopla aside..Ill give my vote to the CZ75 (All Ive had have had good otb triggers) and the Sig.....

Shoot well

 

[NEtracker]

For defensive accuracy, I find my P99 9mm to be fine.
For distance & bullseye work, I like my BHP.
(of course, it has a lot to do with each shooter's ability)

 

[creekerdoug]

I've found the Glock 34 to be much better than the Glock 17. It has a little longer sight radius and a much better trigger.

I haven't shot any HK pistols but I really like the G-34. I have two trick P-35 Hi Powers and they aren't as accurate as an out of the box G-34.

CD

 

[goon]

Probably either the SIG or the CZ, but I think that it would come down to individual guns with most of them.
As a group, I would say SIG.

 

[Stealthfixr]

CZ 75BD cannot be beat

and when you factor in the price, it becomes a no brainer ...

Got just under 1800 rounds out of mine since last Christmas, and not a single--not one--malfunction. In fact, it out-shoots (accuracy) everything I pit it up against. What else is important??!

 

[Quintin Likely]

I'll be glad to take any of those fouling, un reliable P7s off the hands of the unlucky owner(s)...

heh

 

[Penforhire]

Funny how nobody here said they took so-and-so guns and fired them all mounted to a bench vise to compare accuracy. Too much anecdotal evidence.

For instance, although I own a P99, therefore am a biased fan, I don't consider it any more accurate than the Glocks, Taurus, and S&W's I've tried at the range. I think the P99 barrel's too short for it to be THE most accurate.

 

[Handy]

I believe I posted about bench groups. So did John.


I'm completely unsurprised that no one else has. It's much harder to make blanket claims if you have data.

 

[stretcharmstrong]

"Funny how nobody here said they took so-and-so guns and fired them all mounted to a bench vise to compare accuracy. Too much anecdotal evidence...."

Assume all the guns were bench fired from a vise. Unless you had several examples of each gun tested from different manufacturing periods, the results would only pertain to those individual examples tested. This still does not give valid enough result evidence to determine generally which combat gun make/model is the most accurate. You only found out which gun is the most accurate in your safe.

I think threads like this though not very scientific are still very informative. I bet many of you are contimplating about getting one of those Star's cheap at a gun show. I know I am now but the thought never crossed my mind before reading this thread.

 

[Island Beretta]

I have always liked the Walther P99 and had intended to buy it for a concealed carry piece. I remember Gun Tests doing an article on it and it was posting sub 2" groups at 25 yds. I have attached the article. I even bought the first 2 Bond movies when he switched to the P99. When I finally got to hold one it did not fit my hands and so I passed! I was extremely disappointed.

I instead bought a Beretta compact L and this is one very accurate gun. I put a LPA adjustable sight on it with a narrower sight window. My sight radius is now 6.6" (which is even more than its big brother) with a 4.3 " barrel. The gun has registered a best of 2.2" at 25 yds, and at 15 yds to which it is zeroed, I have gotten sub 2" (1.7" best) groups. The gun's sear and hammer have been polished and reduced power mainspring put in. I have attached also a rubber stop at the back of the trigger to reduce overtravel. I fully believe the gun is capable of sub 2" groups at 25 yds, and one day if my eyes hold up I will go for it.

Nevertheless, the most accurate out of the box service pistol I have ever shot in decreasing order of accuracy:

Beretta 92fs full size
BHP Mark III police issue
CZ 75 B Classic (SA; the DA was horrible)
Baby Eagle medium size
Sig P228 (Strangely enough I have never shot a P226-will rectify this grave omission soon)

I must say this: The most accurate service grade .40 S&W I have ever shot has been the Sig P229. I have shot about 4 now just to make sure that the first was not a fluke. So impressed am I that if (when? ) I go .40S&W the Sig is an instant pick!!!!

Have to hunt in my library for P99 article, will send shortly.

 

[Island Beretta]

See attached as per previous thread.

 

[45R]

In my hands the Walther P99, CZ75B and the Sig P226 are pretty accurate shooters.

 

[jolly roger]

Mine has always been the Sig 226. However, I shot a friends CZ85 that was truly a tack driver. Amazing guns...at any price.

 

[BHP9]

Then your answer is a $1200 P7. It's available and in use, and quite a bit more accurate than anything else listed.

I think there is a differcence between inherint accuarcy and practical accuracy.

I do not shoot the P7 well at all. Its mushing trigger let off really takes some getting used to and trying to hold in the heavy squeeze cocker makes one shoot before one is ready. If you do not shoot quickly the fatique sets in and you foul up the shot.

I also shoot a lot of cast bullet loads way cheaper than purchasing any type of factory or hand load with jacketed bullets. For me personally I would go broke shooting the P7 because of the expense of the ammo. The P7 should not be fired with cast bullets because if the gas system would get plugged up with a sliver of lead you could blow yourself up. Practically speaking the p7 is just to expensive for me to shoot given the ammount of shooting that I do.

I found out the hard way that you must also use the correct buring rate of powder when handloading for this weapon. Use the wrong burning rate of powder and you get jams or worse yet the gun starts to beat itself to death from very violent recoil caused by premature opening of the slide and considering the fact that the gun (although very expensive) is largely made of sheet metal stampings it is not a good idea to overtax this delicately made weapon.

I think too the squeeze cocking mechanism is more of liablity than a safety feature. When flexing the human hand to squeeze cock this weapon this will automatically flex the trigger finger and I have acutually seen more than one person fire off this weapon when he did not mean to do so. Police officers under stress have even fired off this weapon when drawing the weapon under stress out of the holster. Way back when this weapon first came out I thought that it might be "the answer" to the first shot problem of both double and single action automatics but when I actually used this gun and found out how dangerous it was to the user I became disenchanted with it very fast. The designers never took into consideration the Human factor both in regards to muscle reflex and pshological make up of a person under stress. Its exactly the same reason the Glock has caused so many accidental deaths. Trying to teach anyone, even professionals to keep their fingers off the trigger under stress is like trying to teach a teenager not to have sex before marriage. It just doesn't work folks no matter how much brainwashing you impliment.

Just this month I read about yet another Glock lawsuit that resulted in another innocent person being shot dead by the police because under stress they could not keep their finger off of the trigger. The P7 suffers from the same problem the Glock does and it may even be worse because of the fatigue factor that sets in when you must constantly keep the heavy squeeze cocker depressed. And once again under stress people will keep it cocked and their finger right on the trigger. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years and it will not change much anytime soon no matter how much training you get.

 

[Handy]

BHP9,

Everybody knows your stance on the unreloadable P7.

But really, saying that a SA pistol with an enormous, self actuating safety lever is a safety liability is ludicrous. How is that any fundementally different than a BHP9 or 1911, etc?

Don't bother answering, it isn't.



In terms of the "practical accuracy" viewpoint, plenty of people can shoot a P7 VERY well, just as many can shoot ______ pistol very well. Since a P7 has not impediments to practical accuracy (good trigger and sights), AND is the most mechanically accurate auto that qualifies in this thread, how is it NOT the most accurate combat 9?

 

[tex_n_cal]

So one shooter show up the other day at the range, his very first trip, ever. He's driving a new BMW Z8 roadster, and his very first gun is a P7M8. Sorry guys, you can't convince me they qualify as "service pistols"

That said, while I haven't shot one myself, I suspect the Luger Navy (6" barrel) or artillery (8" barrel?) are going to outshoot anything else, just based on sight radius alone. They definitely were originally service pistols, even if they've been obsolete for 60 years.

 

[Handy]

Tex,

How did the NJ State Trooper of the German police man afford a Z8?


How much do you think a Luger would cost to produce right now?

 

[BHP9]

In terms of the "practical accuracy" viewpoint, plenty of people can shoot a P7 VERY well, just as many can shoot ______ pistol very well. Since a P7 has not impediments to practical accuracy (good trigger and sights), AND is the most mechanically accurate auto that qualifies in this thread, how is it NOT the most accurate combat 9?

I personally have a hell of a time with this pistol. Off of sandbags when shooting very carefully and deliberately, fighting the mushy trigger and the heavy squeeze cocker I can get some fairly good groups out of this gun but putting it in the human hand and firing it offhand is entirely a different story.

Anyone can adapt to a gun on the range if you shoot it enough but when you are used to shooting guns with great trigger pulls that break like glass and are not fatiguing to shoot because of the constant fight you have with the squeeze cocking mechanism of this gun , to me personally it just isn't worth the bother.

And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

If you like this gun as a recreational weapon fine. Its expensive and a prestige gun but be warned about its faults. It certainly isn't the gun for everyone, especially the person who is not a dedicated shooter that spends many hours at the range in practice with this weapon.

 

[SapperLeader]

BHP9, I can understand where your coming from...

regarding safety concerns, but I believe the problem lies in training not the hardware. Ive been a soldier for over 5 years and involved with recreational shooting for a lot longer than that(17years?18 years?). The key to not shooting that weapon is your trigger finger. It doesnt matter what kind of trigger the gun has, or what safety features are built in, but as long as the finger is not on the trigger, there will never be a problem. I personalyl am not a fan of HK weapons but it is due to being poor and not being able to afford one, not due to the design. As far as accidentially shooting someone because you didnt recognize them, thats why I investigate any bumps in the night carrying a very bright white light so I will ensure that what is making noise in the kitchen is a burgular rather than a family member making a snack. You can say all you want about not being able to teach professionals about keeping thier finger off the trigger, but to me that is what differentiates the professional from the untrained in the real world situation. How much does the individual follow thier training and other basic muscles skills they have developed. So to finish, I can understand your not liking a certain weapon due to it not fitting your style and preference(ie mushy trigger), but not your bashing it due to the poor training of real world users using it. Just to let you know, Im not a glock owner, but I am owner of a springfield xd9 and xd9 compact, and have never even come remotly close to having the gun go off when I wasnt ready for it to, wether that be on a calm range, or investigating a hostile situation.

 

[Handy]

This:

And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

is complete drivel. If you hold in the cocker, release the safety or cock the hammer, the gun is cocked. Doesn't matter how it got there. You're not making any sense at all. Why should it matter if you have a cocked Sig, 1911 or P7 in your hand?