Zaydok Allen
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Hell of a lot quieter too than a 5.56, though still real loud if used for HD>
What's this? Potentially a good pistol caliber carbine that's not an AR?(CZ Scorpion)
- Thread starter MagnumWill
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OilyPablo
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I did not see a drop down list with:
40S&W
10mm
357Sig
9X25
40S&W
10mm
357Sig
9X25
barnbwt
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"Would be real cool with a stock, but I'm not paying the tax stamp."
But will you pay even more for a SIG brace?
"But 9x19mm is still a cheaper centerfire cartridge than 5.56x45mm, and it sure would be a fun gun to ring short-range steel with!"
And even thought this thing is a monstrous, fat, beast compared to its namesake, it's still quite a lot smaller than a pistol caliber AR15 with oversized magwell. In the realm of diminishing returns, losing that extra inch is actually pretty substantial.
TCB
But will you pay even more for a SIG brace?
"But 9x19mm is still a cheaper centerfire cartridge than 5.56x45mm, and it sure would be a fun gun to ring short-range steel with!"
And even thought this thing is a monstrous, fat, beast compared to its namesake, it's still quite a lot smaller than a pistol caliber AR15 with oversized magwell. In the realm of diminishing returns, losing that extra inch is actually pretty substantial.
TCB
Zaydok Allen
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I don't really think I care enough about it to pay for either. If I really felt the need for a SBR sized gun, then I'd get a bullpup design like a Tavor. If I'm going to use a pistol caliber carbine, then I want a longer barrel anyway like on a Beretta CX4 to maximize the potential of the carbine.
Note that I said cool, not particularly useful. I think for HD or a vehicle weapon, there are much better choices. That doesn't negate the fun factor and cool factor though.
I also have no desire to register an SBR or try to stick a brace on it.
I think the real fun version would be a full auto room broom. But that's not going to happen.
Phaedrus/69
Member
I *** get *** that some people have a big hangup with guns like this because they're 5.56/.223. But not every single gun every person will ever buy is purchased for CQB or SHTF. I'm pretty confident in a PCC for HD but odds are I'll never fire a gun at another human being. But I fire thousands of rounds at paper! The Scorpion would be a helluva lot of fun and once SBR'd, easier to shoot well vs a sidearm. That's enough justification for me and my money.
Zaydok Allen
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Yep. Would be fun.
A little thread resurrection, I just picked one of these up this week.
What: It's as solid as anything else CZ/BRNO that you've come to expect, even if it is so much polymer, basically at about "German" levels of nice (forgive me Czech's, I would actually bet you guys taught ze Germans how to do it like this). It's ergo's are very nice for what it is, and even for what it isn't (stocked fun-switched, in case it needed to be said). It's got a half dozen sling points, apparently. The controls are stiff, but not cheap-about-to-break-it plastic on plastic, just going to take some time breaking them in. The low profile sights are nicely "Novak'ed," in case you needed to pocket carry (snag free). And the action is, again, seemingly hand fit.
Why: Love these never-ending forum argument threads. Impressive really, PDW vs. handgun, PDW vs. carbine, 9mm vs. 45, 9mm vs. anything else, hi-point vs. why bother, cheaper better than expensiver, expensiver better than cheap...bored. It's a semi-auto subgun variant and one first and only designed for FA mil./polizei. Eventually, when we managed to somehow not resurrect the AWB das-sequel, companies like CZ have remembered the little US market and said "they pay how much for an SP89? Neuter ours and let's have a go." It wasn't made for us at first, but it is still one of the best for what it is.
I don't yet trust the Sig MPX (will be getting one regardless) yet only because it's too new, this isn't. It isn't quite as proven as it's old namesake or the mythical Uzi Pro's lineage, but it's big brother has been out there for a little while at least. Otherwise I trust Sig as much as I trust CZ, as no doubt as anyone these days.
I like "PDW's" (just a more efficient term over "semi-auto subgun variant" I get tired of typing). I have handguns, galore, and carbines, galore. I get that you need your sidearm and your carbine in at least a ass. cartridge caliber first before something like this. Like so many others, this does neither role of primary or sidearm very well and in fact most people apparently don't "understand" this weapon type at all beyond toy and bullet-hose. If this was all you had then only the fattest (me) could conceal this well enough and it would lose out at distance against even a 7" AR or AK pistol (mine are oddly pretty accurate even only off a shouldered sling). I would only offer that in its class of weapon, this one for the sake of argument, could be the best option overall.
Cons: you all already hit most of them. Pros: cost, availability (now verses ???), historic reliability (granted, our civie version might be a lemon, but doubt it), size (it's slightly longer than my SP89 MKE clone, larger than my B&T TP9, smaller than my Uzi model A and smaller than my RRA 9mm pistol, but lighter than all but the B&T). Another pro is it's a 9mm, not a 5.7.4.6.22TCM.22mag.300 expensive and hard to find caliber. Everybody makes 9mm, during a panic it's the first to disappear and the first to recover. It's easiest for someone to invest in just the one caliber, the old "cowboy" logic of same ammo for all. Love 9's, have a few, and about a pallet of ammo over the years. It isn't going away for at least a few generations.
Of course I'm going to SBR it if/when I can, or get an SBR version if we see one (SBR>pistol, just sayin'). Right after I SBR one of my little old 32 auto Skorpions.
What: It's as solid as anything else CZ/BRNO that you've come to expect, even if it is so much polymer, basically at about "German" levels of nice (forgive me Czech's, I would actually bet you guys taught ze Germans how to do it like this). It's ergo's are very nice for what it is, and even for what it isn't (stocked fun-switched, in case it needed to be said). It's got a half dozen sling points, apparently. The controls are stiff, but not cheap-about-to-break-it plastic on plastic, just going to take some time breaking them in. The low profile sights are nicely "Novak'ed," in case you needed to pocket carry (snag free). And the action is, again, seemingly hand fit.
Why: Love these never-ending forum argument threads. Impressive really, PDW vs. handgun, PDW vs. carbine, 9mm vs. 45, 9mm vs. anything else, hi-point vs. why bother, cheaper better than expensiver, expensiver better than cheap...bored. It's a semi-auto subgun variant and one first and only designed for FA mil./polizei. Eventually, when we managed to somehow not resurrect the AWB das-sequel, companies like CZ have remembered the little US market and said "they pay how much for an SP89? Neuter ours and let's have a go." It wasn't made for us at first, but it is still one of the best for what it is.
I don't yet trust the Sig MPX (will be getting one regardless) yet only because it's too new, this isn't. It isn't quite as proven as it's old namesake or the mythical Uzi Pro's lineage, but it's big brother has been out there for a little while at least. Otherwise I trust Sig as much as I trust CZ, as no doubt as anyone these days.
I like "PDW's" (just a more efficient term over "semi-auto subgun variant" I get tired of typing). I have handguns, galore, and carbines, galore. I get that you need your sidearm and your carbine in at least a ass. cartridge caliber first before something like this. Like so many others, this does neither role of primary or sidearm very well and in fact most people apparently don't "understand" this weapon type at all beyond toy and bullet-hose. If this was all you had then only the fattest (me) could conceal this well enough and it would lose out at distance against even a 7" AR or AK pistol (mine are oddly pretty accurate even only off a shouldered sling). I would only offer that in its class of weapon, this one for the sake of argument, could be the best option overall.
Cons: you all already hit most of them. Pros: cost, availability (now verses ???), historic reliability (granted, our civie version might be a lemon, but doubt it), size (it's slightly longer than my SP89 MKE clone, larger than my B&T TP9, smaller than my Uzi model A and smaller than my RRA 9mm pistol, but lighter than all but the B&T). Another pro is it's a 9mm, not a 5.7.4.6.22TCM.22mag.300 expensive and hard to find caliber. Everybody makes 9mm, during a panic it's the first to disappear and the first to recover. It's easiest for someone to invest in just the one caliber, the old "cowboy" logic of same ammo for all. Love 9's, have a few, and about a pallet of ammo over the years. It isn't going away for at least a few generations.
Of course I'm going to SBR it if/when I can, or get an SBR version if we see one (SBR>pistol, just sayin'). Right after I SBR one of my little old 32 auto Skorpions.
You upset the keyboard commandos and "operators" with this post. Lot's of folks get hung up on the idea guns are only for self defense and/or CC.I *** get *** that some people have a big hangup with guns like this because they're 5.56/.223. But not every single gun every person will ever buy is purchased for CQB or SHTF. I'm pretty confident in a PCC for HD but odds are I'll never fire a gun at another human being. But I fire thousands of rounds at paper! The Scorpion would be a helluva lot of fun and once SBR'd, easier to shoot well vs a sidearm. That's enough justification for me and my money.
Next up: All guns should be Glocks.
wojownik
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Congrats ... been thinking about this piece since the thread started.
If I may ask, what was your OTD price?
Post a range report and pics if you can!
armoredman
Member
When I handled the Scorpion EVO S1 at SHOT I was quite impressed with how solid the gun felt. Polymer, yes, but not Hi Point carbine stock-splitting-down-middle type plastic, but good quality stuff. There's a video of Czech testers applying open flame to the thing for several seconds and then firing the smoking gun with no problem.
Here's the naked gun in front of Shane from CZ-USA...well balanced and easy to use. The gun, not Shane.
With the cheek rest setup, along with the BREN 805 pistol. This is the setup I'd like to get right now.
Also with SIG Brace.
And the originals, which i loved playing with, the LEO only select fire Scorpion EVOs. Had to extend the stocks oll the way out for proper fit.
With a single point sling it would hide under a jacket with no major difficulty, and be perfectly legal for CCW here in AZ. Not the most PRACTICAL choice, but one that would work, especially with a red dot type optic mounted.
For those who wanted a pistol from CZ with the magazine in the pistol grip, here ya go. CZ P-09, after a trip to Cajun Gun Works. No, I don't know if CGW will make anything for the Scorpion...
Last thing - CZ-USA has a request in to ATFE for a ruling on whether or not the Scorpion EVO S1 can be legally SBR without running headlong into 922(r), and the great "ten or less" game. Is we have to play the 922(r) game, it will be a while before we can get anything manufactured domestically to allow that to be done. We'll see. If we can SBR the EVO, I will be needing a Form 1 soon...
Here's the naked gun in front of Shane from CZ-USA...well balanced and easy to use. The gun, not Shane.
With the cheek rest setup, along with the BREN 805 pistol. This is the setup I'd like to get right now.
Also with SIG Brace.
And the originals, which i loved playing with, the LEO only select fire Scorpion EVOs. Had to extend the stocks oll the way out for proper fit.
With a single point sling it would hide under a jacket with no major difficulty, and be perfectly legal for CCW here in AZ. Not the most PRACTICAL choice, but one that would work, especially with a red dot type optic mounted.
For those who wanted a pistol from CZ with the magazine in the pistol grip, here ya go. CZ P-09, after a trip to Cajun Gun Works. No, I don't know if CGW will make anything for the Scorpion...
Last thing - CZ-USA has a request in to ATFE for a ruling on whether or not the Scorpion EVO S1 can be legally SBR without running headlong into 922(r), and the great "ten or less" game. Is we have to play the 922(r) game, it will be a while before we can get anything manufactured domestically to allow that to be done. We'll see. If we can SBR the EVO, I will be needing a Form 1 soon...
Mine was about $800 after taxes. Range time should be this weekend so we'll see. I'll take it with some other toys to see a difference verses other similar pistol caliber PDW's-types.
That does seem like it may be a problem, legally morphing mine into an SBR vs. the ever-saving-me-from-myself 922R consideration. Has anyone even seen an Evo's stock available yet? In fact, has anyone found any spare mags for it yet, 20's or 30's?
That does seem like it may be a problem, legally morphing mine into an SBR vs. the ever-saving-me-from-myself 922R consideration. Has anyone even seen an Evo's stock available yet? In fact, has anyone found any spare mags for it yet, 20's or 30's?
Phaedrus/69
Member
Yeah, 922r is a wet blanket. Hopefully we get a positive (ie good news) response from the Jackbooted Thugs...er, I mean the ATF. I'd love have an SBR'd Scorpion!
I'd love have an SBR'd Scorpion!
armoredman
Member
CZ-USA had some 30 round mags on the website..ALL of them were sold out in a matter of hours. I think the Scorpion might be a wee bit popular already. Mine should be here soon. BTW, the SIG Brace Adapter is available on the cz-usa.com webstore, too, for less than $80.
BTW, the SIG Brace Adapter is available on the cz-usa.com webstore, too, for less than $80.
barnbwt
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"Hopefully we get a positive (ie good news) response from the Jackbooted Thugs...er, I mean the ATF"
Me, too, but they've been pretty consistent about this since they changed their minds on the matter (Title II guns were once not subject to 922R, then they noticed that a word in two unrelated statutes passed a century apart was spelled the same and jumped on it). Home builders used to do SBRs as a way to avoid doing compliance BS on rare/difficult projects for which compliance parts were not available. No dice, ever. Maybe CZ has deep enough pockets to make the ATF go back on its word somehow (have them make up some bull about "manufacturer intent" and put the burden of legality on how the end user holds the thing, or something)
CZ would be better served by getting some domestic parts made to cover the difference, but somehow I'm guessing they were banking on selling the initial run of pistols in order to finance exactly that (federal taxation, once again killing commerce before it even gets going)
TCB
Me, too, but they've been pretty consistent about this since they changed their minds on the matter (Title II guns were once not subject to 922R, then they noticed that a word in two unrelated statutes passed a century apart was spelled the same and jumped on it). Home builders used to do SBRs as a way to avoid doing compliance BS on rare/difficult projects for which compliance parts were not available. No dice, ever. Maybe CZ has deep enough pockets to make the ATF go back on its word somehow (have them make up some bull about "manufacturer intent" and put the burden of legality on how the end user holds the thing, or something)
CZ would be better served by getting some domestic parts made to cover the difference, but somehow I'm guessing they were banking on selling the initial run of pistols in order to finance exactly that (federal taxation, once again killing commerce before it even gets going
)TCB
armoredman
Member
Actually, rumor has it that they may make good on some domestic manufacture if the market is right - they DO have a factory here in the States they could potentially use.
Snejdarek
Member
They recently invested into new factories in Slovakia and Brazil that will be making only plastics (primarily P07s and P09s) so investing into some plastic in US would be in line with that, potentially freeing the whole Czech production line for guns made primarily out of metal.
Surculus
Member
Sure, back in the day when best price for .223 was $4/20 and you could find 9mmP for $6/50, but now that the ammo drought is easing up on rifle carts faster than pistol rounds & you can get 20rd of .223 for a bottom price of $5.50 and 9mmP is still running $13/50, it's a wash.
Either way, the Hi-Point carbine is the way to go for cheap & cheerful ctr-fire shooting joy...
Jackal
Member
If you have a Sig Brace on it, just remember: If you use it for home defense, dont let the bad guy see you shoulder it...
I want one to SBR. It should make a great SBR. As others have noted the issue will be 922r. Prices are high right now for all the people that have to be the first guy to have one. I imagine they will come down once the newness wears off. As a rifle this gun has a lot going for it.
I have a couple of Sub 2ks. They really are not comparable to this gun. For $300 or so the sub 2K is a fun gun but it is inferior in almost every respect to something like the evo. First, the Evo is a proven military/LEO design. The kel tec, not so much. Second, the ergonomics of the evo are better. Third, sights are much, much better on the evo. Fourth, adding a red dot evo is easy. To do so with the sub2k adds expense and is typically a compromise anyways. Fifth, the evo has a threaded barrel. Its an odd ball thread pattern but various adapters are already out there. Threading a sub 2K adds expense and can be problematic. The types of folk that want an Evo SBR are not going to find the kel tec a satisfactory replacement.
I had one and sold it. It went bang and was reasonably accurate but there was nothing about the gun a really liked. It was really cheap and a good value but didn't do much for me.
I guess I have never understood why guys who are to cheap to pay for a tax stamp or live under draconian state laws feel the need to state as much in threads about weapons that are clearly built to be SBRs.
I personally will wait for prices to settle, mags to become readily available, and for 922r issues to be clarified (official parts counts, and what US parts will be available). I want one though. I think it will be a cool SBR and suppressor host. I think it is a great alternative to high priced MP5 clones and the MPX (which apparently is still vaporware anyways).
I have a couple of Sub 2ks. They really are not comparable to this gun. For $300 or so the sub 2K is a fun gun but it is inferior in almost every respect to something like the evo. First, the Evo is a proven military/LEO design. The kel tec, not so much. Second, the ergonomics of the evo are better. Third, sights are much, much better on the evo. Fourth, adding a red dot evo is easy. To do so with the sub2k adds expense and is typically a compromise anyways. Fifth, the evo has a threaded barrel. Its an odd ball thread pattern but various adapters are already out there. Threading a sub 2K adds expense and can be problematic. The types of folk that want an Evo SBR are not going to find the kel tec a satisfactory replacement.
I had one and sold it. It went bang and was reasonably accurate but there was nothing about the gun a really liked. It was really cheap and a good value but didn't do much for me.
I guess I have never understood why guys who are to cheap to pay for a tax stamp or live under draconian state laws feel the need to state as much in threads about weapons that are clearly built to be SBRs.
I personally will wait for prices to settle, mags to become readily available, and for 922r issues to be clarified (official parts counts, and what US parts will be available). I want one though. I think it will be a cool SBR and suppressor host. I think it is a great alternative to high priced MP5 clones and the MPX (which apparently is still vaporware anyways).
TOU
Member
Okay...I have been looking for 2 days on something I am very interested that is a completely different for this little Czech. I have found nothing so far.
Are you all familiar with the Armscor 1911's that come on a 22 TCM/9mm 2 barrel package? If the magazine can handle the length of the 22 TCM than all you need do is swap the barrel & done...I hope. THAT is what I am really interested in. I have my doubts that it will though...anyone have a 22 TCM round that they can Czech?
If so..someone needs to step up an make replacement barrels (preferably threaded for this 'pistol')...and I would step up and SBR one ASAP. Still might
You listening CMMMG???
Are you all familiar with the Armscor 1911's that come on a 22 TCM/9mm 2 barrel package? If the magazine can handle the length of the 22 TCM than all you need do is swap the barrel & done...I hope. THAT is what I am really interested in. I have my doubts that it will though...anyone have a 22 TCM round that they can Czech?
If so..someone needs to step up an make replacement barrels (preferably threaded for this 'pistol')...and I would step up and SBR one ASAP. Still might
You listening CMMMG???
TOU
Member
Okay, I was able to try a standard 22TCM in the 9mm magazine of a Scorpion EVO...no dice. Its about 1/8" - 1/10" too long. Dang!!!
{back home to the drawing board...or the Internet}
I discovered that Armscor is just releasing the first of 9mm several conversions for 22TCM; the first is for 1,2,3 generation Glocks. But they altered the round to become 22TCM9M. I.E. same case, shorter bullet, same speeds but fits in all 9mm magazines!!!
I.E. This is most likely doable with a new barrel and spring.
Now just checking to see if a blow back design versus breech lock design is going to be an issue. Then back to Armscor or CMMG for barrels...
Bottom line is I just sold my FN-PS90 tri-rail as well as my VZ-61 Skorpion that I had intended to SBR. I then went to my LGS & ordered a new Scorpion EVO in pistol form...no arm brace and I will be SBR'ing it regardless. It will be an even bigger bonus as a 2 caliber suppressed rig!
{back home to the drawing board...or the Internet}
I discovered that Armscor is just releasing the first of 9mm several conversions for 22TCM; the first is for 1,2,3 generation Glocks. But they altered the round to become 22TCM9M. I.E. same case, shorter bullet, same speeds but fits in all 9mm magazines!!!
I.E. This is most likely doable with a new barrel and spring.
Now just checking to see if a blow back design versus breech lock design is going to be an issue. Then back to Armscor or CMMG for barrels...
Bottom line is I just sold my FN-PS90 tri-rail as well as my VZ-61 Skorpion that I had intended to SBR. I then went to my LGS & ordered a new Scorpion EVO in pistol form...no arm brace and I will be SBR'ing it regardless. It will be an even bigger bonus as a 2 caliber suppressed rig!
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