What's what in powders

[Jarhead66]

Hi guys, very new to the forum and reloading. I shoot as of now 9mm Luger. I see all these powders out there for pistols, mag and small size. Is there a good all around 1 stop reference site that would give the ups and downs, pros and cons of the powders on the market. I understand the starting points of gains and max load and pressures with different bullets, and different powders have different loads for the same weight bullet. My dilemma is why should I get Hodgdon over IMR over alliant and so on and does a certain powder have a benefit over another. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Hangingrock]

I'm not one to argue the merits of powders. All I'll say for the 9mm-Luger HP38/W231-or- Win-AutoComp, & Unique (as an alternate) is what I've used.

 

[Sunray]

"...Is there a good all around 1 stop reference site..." Hi. Never seen such a site.
There is no Hodgdon over IMR. Hodgdon owns IMR now. And there's really no technical reason to use one powder over another for handgun loads.
It's mostly about how well a particular powder flows through the power thrower you have.
Bit different with rifle, but not by much. Rifle loads tend to be weighed individually vs a thrower.
All the manufacturers have decent web sites, usually with data. Bookmark 'em.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Frist off, in my opinion, there is no "best" powder company among IMR, Winchester, Hodgdon, and Alliant. Most buy powders from other companies and resell, Some Winchester powders are EXACTLY the same as Hodgdon powders.

There are some powders that have been all-arounders for years in pistol that will give good results. Win231/HP38, Bullseye, Unique come to mind immediately. You can load 9mm, 40, 45, 38, light .357 in them, with varying results.

If you buy Clays powders, the labeling can be confusing. I have seen more incidents with people using Clays data for Universal Clays powder than any other powder mixup. Just be careful and read the label thoroughly. There is Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays.

For 9mm/45/38, most powders good for one are good enough for the others. I primarily use Win231/HP38 (same thing) when I can get it. The other powders are fine and do just as well when I can't - it just means I need to make new loads for these powders.

The only problem I have with any of them is Alliant. They have deleted a lot of load data from their guide in recent years. During the shortage, I could only get Red Dot. I knew at least 3 people that loved it for 9mm. Alliant's site no longer said it was even usable for 115gr 9mm. I had to use old load data to get a load for it, and the load was a good one. I think they are trying to push everyone to load pistol with BE-86, so their load data for other stuff is dwindling.

My advice is to figure out which caliber and bullet you want to start with, and buy a powder based on other people's pet load data that will also fill other caliber roles. But work up to their loads based on published load data. Try it out, and get used to it - then buy a pound of something else and try it too. Most folks end up using the first one they picked up unless it isn't available.

For Magnums, .357, .44, etc the general pistol powders will work and have load data, but you will not get the real benefit of the gun unless you use a slower powder like IMR 4227 or Win296/H110. Those powders don't really work in normal pistol loads.

Remember. Keep your powder all stored except the canister you are loading from. Clean out the press and hopper when you put it away. Never have 2 different powders on the loading bench at once. Same with Primers.

Always use published load data, including primer type (regular vs magnum).

Good luck, have fun, and don't be shy about asking questions.

 

[dave333]

The main difference in pistol powders comes down to burn rate and what kind of reloads you want. Faster powders are best for lighter to midrange loads, slower powders are better for midrange and "hot" loads. Decide what you are looking for and search the forums for similar type loads, ie light target loads, self defense loads, etc. There are other considerations like how clean or dirty the powder burns, how well it meters, and so on but you kind of need to know what you are trying to accomplish first to help decide what powder will help you get there the best.

 

[Toprudder]

One thing I have learned is that just because there is load data for a certain powder in a certain caliber does not mean it will work well. Some powders are better than others. Powders that work well in 9mm may not work that well in 45acp. But, there are several powders that do work across a wide range of calibers.

As far as one location where you can find all this out, well, THR probably comes as close as any. You just have to ask. Be advised, if you ask what is the best powder for 9mm, you might get a dozen different answers.

I have the Ken Waters "Pet Loads" book. The information in there is somewhat dated, but he does have good information on powder/bullet combinations that worked well for him. The only powders you will find in there, though, are ones that have been around a while, and a few that are not available anymore.

 

[LiveLife]

What's what in powders

9mm ... Is there a good all around 1 stop reference site that would give the ups and downs, pros and cons of the powders on the market.

My dilemma is why should I get Hodgdon over IMR over alliant and so on and does a certain powder have a benefit over another.

Welcome to THR.

Below is a compilation of pistol powders by relative burn rate grouping - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9906849&postcount=113

Faster burning pistol powders:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Ba10

No. 2 - Bullseye - Clays - WST - Red Dot/Promo - 700X - TiteGroup - Solo 1000 - Am. Select - International - Trail Boss - PB - N320 - Ba9 1/2

No. 5 - W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - SR7625 - N32C - A1

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - BE-86 - Power Pistol - WSF - N330 - Ba9

HS6 - AutoComp - CFE Pistol - Long Shot - Herco - 800X - True Blue - N340 - 3N37 - A0

No. 7 - SR4756 - Blue Dot - N350 - Ba7 1/2

No. 9 - Enforcer - W296/H110 - 2400 - Steel - SR4759 - H4227 - Lil'Gun - 3N38 - Ba6 1/2

What I found with faster burning than Unique/Universal/BE-86 powders is that faster powders tend to produce more snappy recoil while slower burning powders produce less snappy recoil.

Slower burning powders tend to produce consistent chamber pressures (and more efficient powder burn) at high to near max load data and produce greater velocities. You need consistent chamber pressures for consistent muzzle velocities which translates to smaller shot groups/accuracy. Faster burning powders can produce consistent enough chamber pressures at mid to high range load data for accuracy but will produce lower velocities. For these reasons, slower powders are used for full-power loads while faster powders are used for lighter recoil target loads.

Moderately fast burning W231/HP-38 (they are same exact powder) and Zip/No. 5 are often recommended for new reloaders as they provide flexibility between fast/slower burn rate powders with excellent metering qualities (+/- .1 grain or less variance) in most powder measures.

Powder granule type and size is another consideration. Powders such as No. 2/No. 5 are "ball" powders while W231/HP-38/WSF/AutoComp are "flattened ball" powders. They meter very well with +/- .1 grain or less variance. Powders such as Bullseye/BE-86/Power Pistol are "small flake" powders and also meter very well with +/- .1 grain or less variance. Red Dot/Promo/Unique are bulky "large flake" powders and won't meter very well often with +/- .2 gr+ variance.

Although large flake powders like Unique won't meter well, it is popular with reloaders as most pistol charges will spill over the case with a double charge while more denser powders like W231/HP-38 will not spill over even with a double or triple charge of powder.

I have used Bullseye/Clays/WST/Red Dot/Promo/Titegroup/N320/W231/HP-38/Green Dot/Unique/Universal/BE-86/Power Pistol/WSF/HS-6/AutoComp/Herco for 9mm and found Bullseye/Titegroup/WST/BE-86 to produce more accurate loads than W231/HP-38 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

I like Red Dot/Promo for general purpose/plinking loads as even though they don't meter well, they produce accurate enough economical loads for range practice (Promo is lowest priced pistol powder at around $110/8 lbs).


Here are some more detailed characteristics and pictures of popular pistol powders compared to W231/HP-38 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9890280#post9890280


Alliant Bullseye, Winchester 231/Hodgdon HP-38 and Alliant Power Pistol



W231 and HP-38 are coated flattened ball powders. They are the same exact powder sold by Winchester and licensed to Hodgdon in 2006 and W231 load data can be interchanged with HP-38 if your W231 was manufactured after 2006. Because of small size and smooth coating, W231/HP-38 meters very consistently and drops powder charges from Pro Auto Disk with less than .1 gr variance. The coating helps lubricate Pro Auto Disk surfaces and is my powder of choice for breaking-in new Pro Auto Disk. I use W231/HP-38 for all pistol calibers I load for as it produces accurate mid-range lower pressure target loads that produce milder recoil and is a good powder for new reloaders just starting out, especially if using Pro Auto Disk powder measure. It produces 9mm like recoil in 40S&W with start/low charges and moderate recoil with mid range charges. Because of small size and smooth flowing characteristics, I use it for 380Auto loads requiring small powder charges of 2.6-3.0 gr [successfully tested down to 2.0 gr] (below smallest Auto Disk hole) using this modification to my Auto Disk - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9318202

Bullseye is a small flake powder and meters with less than .1 gr variance. Bullseye can produce very accurate target loads (more accurate than W231/HP-38) but because it is faster burning than W231/HP-38, felt recoil generated is more snappy but manageable in 9mm and less comfortable in 40S&W. Bullseye downloads well (shoots accurate down to start charge) and is a popular powder with Bullseye match shooters (hence the name). Same Auto Disk mod works well with Bullseye to drop 1.8-2.6 gr [successfully tested down to 1.5 gr] - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9318360#post9318360

Power Pistol is a small flake powder and meters with less than .1 gr variance. Power Pistol is slower burning than W231/HP-38 and tends to produce larger than typical muzzle flash in some loads and is popular for 40S&W and other calibers for full-power loads.


Alliant Red Dot, W231/HP-38 and Alliant Promo



Red Dot is a large flake powder and meters with up to .2+ gr variance. If you look at Red Dot closely, you'll see occasional red flakes. Red Dot is a faster burning powder than W231/HP-38 (I think on par with Bullseye) and well suited for various pistol calibers. Despite the larger metering variance, it produces accurate enough loads for range practice/plinking rounds. If you find current load data from Alliant limited, you can find more FMJ/lead loads in 2004 Alliant load data - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

Promo is a large flake powder and meters with up to .2+ gr variance. Promo burn rate is comparable to Red Dot and Alliant says to use Red Dot load data by weight as Promo is more dense. It is my favorite powder for lead 9mm and 45ACP practice/plinking loads as the same 4.0 gr charge is used for 9mm 124/125 gr RN bullets and 45ACP 200 gr SWC bullets. (Promo thread for 9mm/40S&W range test and 45ACP range test).

Although Red Dot/Promo can be used for 40S&W, like Bullseye, they tend to produce more snappy recoil than W231/HP-38 and slower burning powders with the exception of Green Dot.


W231/HP-38, Vihtavuori N320 and Winchester Super Target (WST)



N320 is cut extruded powder (like most rifle powder) that meters with .1 gr variance. N320 is a fast burning powder and many match shooters consider it to be the best 9mm match powder that burns clean and shoots accurate.

WST is flattened ball powder without the black coating. It is a fast burn rate powder that meters with less than .1 gr variance. [Although Hodgdon does not publish load data for 9mm, many match shooters use it. With 124/125 gr bullet pushed to beyond 125 power factor velocities, powder charge may be compressed to varying degree so anticipate spiking of pressure with higher than 4.0 gr charge with FMJ/RN loaded to 1.160" OAL/COL. Many seasoned match shooters told me WST was spiky at the top]


Hodgdon Clays, W231/HP-38 and Hodgdon Titegroup



Clays is a very clean burning fast burn rate powder that meters with .1 gr variance. It is capable of producing accurate light target loads.

Reloaders have either love or hate relationship with Titegroup. Titegroup meters with less than .1 gr variance and is a fast burning powder that burns hot and violent (spiky chamber pressure build up) at near max load data with very narrow load range for many loads (some may consider the start charge to be already near max ). It is a powder that I do not recommend to new reloaders, particularly with lead bullets. However, it is a popular powder with many match shooters as match loads that meet velocity/power factor requirements are less temperature sensitive than W231/HP-38.


Alliant Green Dot, W231/HP-38 and Alliant Herco



Green Dot is sized between Bullseye and Red Dot/Unique and has green flakes. It meters with .1 gr variance and I consider it Alliant's closest powder to W231/HP-38. I found I needed to use .2-.3 gr more powder than my W231/HP-38 loads and produces slightly less accurate loads but if you can't find W231/HP-38 or Ramshot Zip, Green Dot is a good alternative. It is particularly good powder for 40S&W as it produces lower pressure target loads with lighter recoil.

Herco is a flake powder sized comparable to Green Dot and meters with .1 gr variance. It's burn rate is listed between Power Pistol and WSF. This thread covers Herco load development with 9mm jacketed/plated/lead bullets - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=745656


Hodgdon Universal, W231/HP-38 and Alliant Unique



Unique is popular with many reloaders as it is versatile for most pistol calibers at high to full power loads. It meters with .2+ gr variance and while I tried to like it, since most of my loads are lighter mid-to-high range load data target loads, I prefer to use W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders that are able to produce accuracy at below high-to-near max load data. However, even if Unique was the only powder I had to reload pistol calibers, I would not complain.

Many claim Universal is Hodgdon's version of Unique as it too is versatile for most pistol calibers yet it meters better with .1 gr variance.


Winchester Super Field (WSF), W231/HP-38 and Winchester AutoComp



WSF is the powder I prefer to load full power loads, especially for practice/backup/near duplicate factory JHP rounds using bulk Speer Gold Dot HP and Remington Golden Saber JHP bullets for higher velocities it can produce. Walkalong suggested I try N340 for higher velocity loads and I am planning to do a comparison with WSF, N340 and CFE Pistol as soon as I get some. Like W231/HP-38, WSF is also coated flattened ball powder that meters with less than .1 gr variance.

Some suggested Auto Comp is WSF with flash suppressant but as you can see from the close up comparison picture, the granules are smaller and meters with less than .1 gr variance. I like AutoComp for 9mm/40S&W full power loads."

 

[cfullgraf]

Hi guys, very new to the forum and reloading. I shoot as of now 9mm Luger. I see all these powders out there for pistols, mag and small size. Is there a good all around 1 stop reference site that would give the ups and downs, pros and cons of the powders on the market. I understand the starting points of gains and max load and pressures with different bullets, and different powders have different loads for the same weight bullet. My dilemma is why should I get Hodgdon over IMR over alliant and so on and does a certain powder have a benefit over another. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome to the forum.

I'd recommend getting a book or two on reloading. The general and basic information on reloading and the "whys" and "hows will be included there. Also, a wealth of safety warnings. Assuming you are interested in getting into reloading, you will need a manual or two.

Many of your powder questions will be answered or at least will give you some basic knowledge to narrow your questions to specific powder and cartridge topics.

"ABC's of Reloading" is a good basic book but does not have any reloading data, which you will need in the future. You may be able to borrow it from the library.

Most reloading manuals include instructional information besides load data for most cartridges.

Most of the hard bound manuals are printed by the bullet manufacturers and thus the data is limited to their products.

Lyman #49 is an exception. The cast bullets in the manual are primarily from Lyman molds but other, jacketed bullets are included in the manual are from several other manufacturers. Lyman #49 has good instructional information as well and is a good manual to start with.

 

[ATLDave]

Man, bds just dropped the knowledge!

And please take the advice to buy at least TWO reloading manuals and read ALL of the front/non-cartridge-specific information BEFORE you reload even one round.

 

[Dudedog]

For a first time loader for the first powder for 9mm I would suggest HP38(Win231) or Universal. HP38 is a bit faster burn speed wise than Universal but both fall about in the middle of the burn speed range for powders used in 9mm. Both meter well.

Lots of other good 9mm powders but I stared with Universal and was happy with it until I couldn't get any more. (plant fire stopped production for a while)
My favorites for 9mm are
1. WSF and Universal (tie)
2. HP38/WIN231 (same powder different name)
3. Lots of things are close here

Depends on what I am after load wise, other powders will generate more velocity than HP38 or Universal but both work well for light, medium, and normal power loads.

I would say read some manuals, then see what you can find locally for the first pound you buy.


Welcome to THR, lots of great people here.

 

[Shootshellz]

Do yourself a favor and buy a copy of 'Basic Handloading' by George Nonte. Though out of print, it can be found on Ebay. No finer book for the beginning reloader to learn the 'nuts and bolts', IMHO. I prefer to pick a 'middle velocity' load from a reloading manual for the bullet weight I am using and then attempt to pick a powder that accomplishes same with the least amount of powder used. For example, if powder 'A' will produce 1100 fps with 4.0 grains and powder 'B' will produce 1100 fps with 3.5 grains I will choose powder 'B'. More 'bang for the buck', as it were (sorry for the bad pun).

 

[joneb]

Nice powder pics bds

 

[LiveLife]

Thank you. I was told a picture is worth a thousand words.

I have CFE Pistol/Longshot on hand and looking for Solo 1000/American Select to test next, particularly in 9mm/40S&W/45ACP carbines with chrono data.

 

[AV8TOR]

Nice powder pics bds

Yes much appreciated

 

[Walkalong]

Like the man with two watches who never knows what time it is, the newbue with two manuals is left scratching their head sometimes over the small differences in data.

Bu one good manual, read and reread it, and have faith in it. After you get your feet wet a bit reloading a little, then you may want to branch out more.

The powder makers have good PDFs online that are very handy for data, but again, data will not match exactly because of differences in barrel length, the barrels themselves, conditions, etc, etc, so be ready for that.

If you start with one good manual and read it until you nearly have it memorized, then follow its data, you'll be blissfully ignorant and happy. They will have good explanations of the differences in powders from a literal standpoint. bds just gave a very good dissertation on more real world explanations.

The good news is that it isn't nearly as complicated as it looks at first.

My dilemma is why should I get Hodgdon over IMR over alliant and so on and does a certain powder have a benefit over another

We understand that oh so well, and we all have favorites, but the fact is these days there are a great many good choices out there. It's a mixed blessing.

I really like N340 (Just bought another 4 pounder), but am looking forward to bds's testing, as I know he will give it a good wringing out out with no bias.

Welcome to THR.

 

[david bachelder]

Titegroup works well in 9mm. It meters well and burns pretty clean. You will need to check your weight often. There's not a lot of room there for variance.

I'd also vote for HP38/Win231 or Hodgdon Universal, I'd guess the HP-38/Win231 is easier to find.

 

[Rule3]

If you buy Lymans #49 Manual, in the first part of the manual there is a section on powders and it explaes the differences and what they are good for. Of course it does not have all the new ones in there.

There is no magic powder but for a powder that will do most anything I would say HP39/Win231 or Unique with the nod to HP38 as it meters a little better,

All powder companies have similar powders so the brand name is not a big deal.

I prefer Hodgdon which also distributes Win and IMR as their web site is very good. So is Accurate Powders.

http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-49th-Edition-Reloading-Handbook/dp/B001MYEU0E

 

[Reeferman]

Wow great post bds. I leaned some things I wasn't aware of. Thanks you.

 

[SC Shooter]

For the most part, I use Hodgdon powders, primarily Titegroup and CFE Pistol. When pistol powder was scarce this is what was most available in this area. I got comfortable with Hodgdon and have stuck with it.