Same/comparable/close powders under different labels

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Adding Accurate No. 11FS to comparable powders - http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/load_data_11FS.pdf

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- Winchester W231 and Hodgdon HP-38
- Hodgdon HS-6 and Winchester W540
- Hodgdon HS-7 and Winchester W571
- Ramshot Silhouette and Winchester WAP
- Ramshot Enforcer and Accurate 4100
- Winchester W296 and Hodgdon H110
- Hodgdon H4227 and IMR 4227
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- Alliant RL15 and Norma 203B
- Winchester W760 and Hodgdon H414

Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Alliant Bullseye and IMR Target?
- Alliant Bullseye and Vectan Ba10
- Alliant Red Dot and Vectan Ba9 1/2
- Alliant Red Dot and Alliant Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Alliant Red Dot and IMR Red?
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot (for shotgun loads)
- Hodgdon Clays and IMR Trail Boss?
- Hodgdon Clays/WST and Vectan Prima SV (for shotgun loads)
- Winchester WST and Ramshot Competition
- Accurate No. 2 and Shooters World Clean Shot/Lovex D032-03
- Hodgdon Titegroup and Vectan AS (for pistol loads) / Prima V (for shotgun loads)
- Alliant Green Dot and IMR Green?
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Alliant Sport Pistol?
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Vectan 206V (for shotgun loads)
- Accurate No. 5 and Shooters World Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03
- Accurate No. 5 and Vectan D-20/GM3 (for shotgun loads)
- Vihtavuori N330 and Vectan A1
- Alliant Unique/Universal and Vectan Ba9
- Alliant Unique and Hodgdon Universal Clays
- Alliant Unique and IMR Unequal?
- Alliant Unique and Alliant BE-86
- Alliant Unique and Alliant 20/28
- Alliant Power Pistol and Alliant BE-86
- Alliant BE-86 and Alliant Herco (for 40S&W based on 2004 Alliant load data. No current load data from Alliant for Herco and 40S&W)
- Alliant Herco and Vectan A0
- Hodgdon CFE Pistol and Winchester AutoComp
- Winchester AutoComp and Shooters World Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07
- CFE Pistol and Ramshot Silhouette?
- Winchester WSF and Ramshot Silhouette?
- Accurate No. 7 and Shooters World Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01
- Accurate No. 7 and Vectan Ba7 1/2
- Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue?
- Accurate No. 9 and Shooters World Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02
- Accurate No. 9 and Vectan Ba6 1/2
- Winchester W296/H110 and Alliant 300MP
- Winchester W296/H110 and Vectan Ba6 1/2
- Winchester W296/H110 and Vihtavuori N110
- Accurate 11FS and Winchester Alliant 300-MP/Hodgdon H110/Winchester W296?
- Accurate 5744 and Shooters World Cowboy/Lovex D060-01
- Accurate 1680 and Shooters World Blackout/Lovex D063-02
- Hodgdon H335 and Ramshot TAC
- Hodgdon H335 and Accurate 2230
- Hodgdon H335 and Shooters World AR Plus/Lovex D073-04
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR 4895 and Accurate 2495?
- Hodgdon Varget and Accurate 4064/Alliant RL15/IMR 4064?
- Hodgdon Varget and Lovex S062-01
- Hodgdon BL-C(2) and Winchester 748
- Hodgdon BL-C(2) and Lovex D073-05
- Hodgdon CFE223 and Accurate 2520
- Hodgdon CFE223 and Shooters World Match Rifle/Lovex D073-06
- Hodgdon 4350 and Lovex S070-01
- Hodgdon 4831 and Lovex S071-01
- Norma MRP and Alliant RL22?
 
After range testing, moving IMR Target to "comparable" to Titegroup - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-vectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/#post-10508215

Confirming Alliant Sport Pistol "comparable" to W231/HP-38 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-alliant-sport-pistol.816514/page-5#post-10598431

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- Winchester W231 and Hodgdon HP-38
- Hodgdon HS-6 and Winchester W540
- Hodgdon HS-7 and Winchester W571
- Ramshot Silhouette and Winchester WAP
- Ramshot Enforcer and Accurate 4100
- Winchester W296 and Hodgdon H110
- Hodgdon H4227 and IMR 4227
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- Alliant RL15 and Norma 203B
- Winchester W760 and Hodgdon H414

Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Alliant Bullseye and Vectan Ba10
- Alliant Red Dot and Vectan Ba9 1/2
- Alliant Red Dot and Alliant Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Alliant Red Dot and IMR Red?
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot (for shotgun loads)
- Hodgdon Clays and IMR Trail Boss?
- Hodgdon Clays/WST and Vectan Prima SV (for shotgun loads)
- Winchester WST and Ramshot Competition
- Accurate No. 2 and Shooters World Clean Shot/Lovex D032-03
- Hodgdon Titegroup and IMR Target
- Hodgdon Titegroup and Vectan AS (for pistol loads) / Prima V (for shotgun loads)
- Alliant Green Dot and IMR Green?
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Alliant Sport Pistol
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- Winchester W231/HP-38 and Vectan 206V (for shotgun loads)
- Accurate No. 5 and Shooters World Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03
- Accurate No. 5 and Vectan D-20/GM3 (for shotgun loads)
- Vihtavuori N330 and Vectan A1
- Alliant Unique/Universal and Vectan Ba9
- Alliant Unique and Hodgdon Universal Clays
- Alliant Unique and IMR Unequal?
- Alliant Unique and Alliant BE-86
- Alliant Unique and Alliant 20/28
- Alliant Power Pistol and Alliant BE-86
- Alliant BE-86 and Alliant Herco (for 40S&W based on 2004 Alliant load data. No current load data from Alliant for Herco and 40S&W)
- Alliant Herco and Vectan A0
- Hodgdon CFE Pistol and Winchester AutoComp
- Winchester AutoComp and Shooters World Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07
- CFE Pistol and Ramshot Silhouette?
- Winchester WSF and Ramshot Silhouette?
- Accurate No. 7 and Shooters World Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01
- Accurate No. 7 and Vectan Ba7 1/2
- Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue?
- Accurate No. 9 and Shooters World Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02
- Accurate No. 9 and Vectan Ba6 1/2
- Winchester W296/H110 and Alliant 300MP
- Winchester W296/H110 and Vectan Ba6 1/2
- Winchester W296/H110 and Vihtavuori N110
- Accurate 11FS and Winchester Alliant 300-MP/Hodgdon H110/Winchester W296?
- Accurate 5744 and Shooters World Cowboy/Lovex D060-01
- Accurate 1680 and Shooters World Blackout/Lovex D063-02
- Hodgdon H335 and Ramshot TAC
- Hodgdon H335 and Accurate 2230
- Hodgdon H335 and Shooters World AR Plus/Lovex D073-04
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR 4895 and Accurate 2495?
- Hodgdon Varget and Accurate 4064/Alliant RL15/IMR 4064?
- Hodgdon Varget and Lovex S062-01
- Hodgdon BL-C(2) and Winchester 748
- Hodgdon BL-C(2) and Lovex D073-05
- Hodgdon CFE223 and Accurate 2520
- Hodgdon CFE223 and Shooters World Match Rifle/Lovex D073-06
- Hodgdon 4350 and Lovex S070-01
- Hodgdon 4831 and Lovex S071-01
- Norma MRP and Alliant RL22?
 
If Hp38 and w231 are the exact same thing, then why does Hornady #10 list them non-consecutively?

#15 Win 231
#16 zip
#17 trail boss
#18 hp38

Does that mean zip and trail boss have the same burn rate? What's the deal here?
 
This data is the result of a LOT of studying, there are several people on this forum that, if they tell you a Pi$$ Ant can pull a freight train, Hook Him Up.

Vast knowledge. It's been my experience, that some data is different between manufacturers, I believe these "Differences" are due to either actual testing or lack thereof, some call it :Guesstimation", The above is a reference only, in the event you can't locate the desired powder, this will show similar powders.

Good Luck
Dan
 
Tony k said:
If Hp38 and w231 are the exact same thing, then why does Hornady #10 list them non-consecutively?

#15 Win 231
#16 zip
#17 trail boss
#18 hp38

Does that mean zip and trail boss have the same burn rate? What's the deal here?
Click to expand...

It could be different lots of the powder, or slightly different test conditions. Just because some are close to each other, does not mean they have the same burn profile/characteristics.

In this case Hodgdons has told us. They bought Winchester and just keep it going. There is royalty involved when you buy the WW branded powder. The reason it normally cost a little more.
 
Blue68f100 said:
It could be different lots of the powder, or slightly different test conditions. Just because some are close to each other, does not mean they have the same burn profile/characteristics.

In this case Hodgdons has told us. They bought Winchester and just keep it going. There is royalty involved when you buy the WW branded powder. The reason it normally cost a little more.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking. On other charts zip and trail boss are listed as faster. Other powders seem to be jockeying for position as well. For example Hornady shows bullseye as the second fastest--faster than 700x red dot, and clays. A hodgdon chart from November 2016 puts bullseye slower than all of those.

If this is lot to lot variation, then it suggests that all of these powders are very close in burn rate.

If so, then what factors result in measurably different performance? Density? Composition? Geometry?
 
No. W231 and HP-38 have been the same exact powders since 2006 when Hodgdon was licensed to sell Winchester powders and Hodgdon load data has been showing same start/max charges for W231/HP-38 since 2006.

If published load data shows different start/max charges for W231/HP-38, it is older than 2006 test data.
Tony k said:
If Hp38 and w231 are the exact same thing, then why does Hornady #10 list them non-consecutively?
Click to expand...
Maybe Hornady knows something Hodgdon doesn't as Hodgdon's newest powder burn rate chart lists HP-38 next to W231 - http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf
 
bds said:
No. W231 and HP-38 have been the same exact powders since 2006 when Hodgdon was licensed to sell Winchester powders and Hodgdon load data has been showing same start/max charges for W231/HP-38 since 2006.

If published load data shows different start/max charges for W231/HP-38, it is older than 2006 test data.

Maybe Hornady knows something Hodgdon doesn't as Hodgdon's newest powder burn rate chart lists HP-38 next to W231 - http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf
Click to expand...

I've got Hornady 8th and 10th. Both show same burn rate chart.

I'm inclined to believe the powder manufacturer's (hodgdon is a distributor not a manufacturer) most recent chart over a recycled chart in a bullet manufacturers manual. Still, it gives weight to the recommendation to work up new loads when switching from lot to lot of the same powder--especially of they we're manufactured decades apart.
 
Even before Hodgdon took over WW marketing, HP38 came off the same production line as W231. Long before 2006 I saw a gun show vendor open a barrel of powder to sell by the pound. The label on the fiber drum was HP38, the packing slip on top of the powder inside the drum said 231. No coordination on lot specs led to differences in load data. Now it all comes out of the same large container from the factory, it just gets the label they have today's orders for.

Note also that globe trotting Accurate is now getting a lot of powder "made in USA." Well, if it is "spherical" it is coming out of the same plant as Winchester Ball and Hodgdon Spherical. They just contract for it to be of the burn rates they established long ago with sources in Israel and China.
 
Has anyone found the "exact' same powder (if any) for:??
I got bewildered trying to read through 100 posts on exact, quoted similar.:confused:


Accurate #5(made in USA)
and
Ramshot Tru Blue (made in Belgium)
 
Rule3 said:
Has anyone found the "exact' same powder (if any) for:??
I got bewildered trying to read through 100 posts on exact, quoted similar.:confused:


Accurate #5(made in USA)
and
Ramshot Tru Blue (made in Belgium)
Click to expand...
Same here.
I considered starting a new thread for my question. In retrospect I probably shoulda.
 
Rule3 said:
Has anyone found the "exact' same powder (if any) for:??
I got bewildered trying to read through 100 posts on exact, quoted similar.:confused:


Accurate #5(made in USA)
and
Ramshot Tru Blue (made in Belgium)
Click to expand...

bds said:
- Accurate No. 5 and Shooters World Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03
- Accurate No. 5 and Vectan D-20/GM3 (for shotgun loads)
Click to expand...
bds said:
- Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue?
Click to expand...
I disagree with this one. True Blue is kind of unique IMHO. And definitely faster and much bulkier than Blue Dot.
 
Walkalong said:
bds said:
- Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue?
Click to expand...
I disagree with this one. True Blue is kind of unique IMHO. And definitely faster and much bulkier than Blue Dot.
Click to expand...
But the comparable listing was for Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue. Notice comparable Blue Dot and IMR Blue listing still has a question mark which will remain until enough THR member verifies they are indeed comparable with actual field testing.

Ramshot True Blue is not listed which falls between IMR 800X and Accurate No. 5 on Hodgdon's powder burn rate chart - http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf
 
Last edited:
dgod said:
This data is the result of a LOT of studying, there are several people on this forum that, if they tell you a Pi$$ Ant can pull a freight train, Hook Him Up.

Vast knowledge.
Click to expand...
Thank you and yes, the knowledge base of THR members is immense and I am constantly impressed by their experience. In comparison, I know "just a little".

Keep in mind that this same/comparable powder listing is dynamic and updated from actual THR member field testing along with powder manufacturer reporting and could not have been possible without THR member contribution. This thread was started during the "Great Component Shortage" when desired and popular powders were not available and reloaders had to work with whatever powder was available.

Thanks to vast knowledge and immense experience of THR members, we now have a reference same/comparable powder listing that THR members and guests can use for their reloading needs.

And a question mark is placed on comparable powders until enough THR members verify with field testing that powders are indeed comparable along with following disclaimers (While this was mentioned at the start of thread but I will go ahead and add to the disclosure from now on):


Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk (Question mark is placed on comparable powder listing until enough THR members verify with field testing that powders are indeed comparable):

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):
 
Last edited:
Tony k said:
If Hp38 and w231 are the exact same thing, then why does Hornady #10 list them non-consecutively?

#15 Win 231
#16 zip
#17 trail boss
#18 hp38

Does that mean zip and trail boss have the same burn rate? What's the deal here?
Click to expand...
Burn rate charts are NOT a reliable method of determining whether any two powders are identical, nor even if the same burn rate, Different chart publishers use different methods for creating their list.
 
I emphatically dispute that Vectan GM3 is equivalent to Accurate #5 in spite of what Vectan says. GM3 is significantly faster, probably closer to #2 or Bullseye. I loaded up some 9mm with what would have been starting loads and they blew out the primers.
 
Elkins45 said:
I emphatically dispute that Vectan GM3 is equivalent to Accurate #5 in spite of what Vectan says. GM3 is significantly faster, probably closer to #2 or Bullseye. I loaded up some 9mm with what would have been starting loads and they blew out the primers.
Click to expand...

How could it be? GM3 is listed as a single base powder and AA #5 is a double base???
 
splattergun said:
Burn rate charts are NOT a reliable method of determining whether any two powders are identical, nor even if the same burn rate, Different chart publishers use different methods for creating their list.
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to imply that. But this thread got me studying charts.

What are these different methods that you speak of?
 
bds said:
Thank you and yes, the knowledge base of THR members is immense and I am constantly impressed by their experience. In comparison, I know "just a little".

Keep in mind that this same/comparable powder listing is dynamic and updated from actual THR member field testing along with powder manufacturer reporting and could not have been possible without THR member contribution. This thread was started during the "Great Component Shortage" when desired and popular powders were not available and reloaders had to work with whatever powder was available.

Thanks to vast knowledge and immense experience of THR members, we now have a reference same/comparable powder listing that THR members and guests can use for their reloading needs.

And a question mark is placed on comparable powders until enough THR members verify with field testing that powders are indeed comparable along with following disclaimers (While this was mentioned at the start of thread but I will go ahead and add to the disclosure from now on):


Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk (Question mark is placed on comparable powder listing until enough THR members verify with field testing that powders are indeed comparable):

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):
Click to expand...
Yep. This thread is how I found a use for green dot for 380
 
Burn rate charts will report the Relative Burn Rates for powders. Powders will react differently in different cartridges so it's important to compare the powders when testing in the same cartridges. Also remember, the chart will tell you which powders are faster or slower than others but not HOW MUCH faster or slower.
 
splattergun said:
Burn rate charts are NOT a reliable method of determining whether any two powders are identical, nor even if the same burn rate, Different chart publishers use different methods for creating their list.
Click to expand...
Elkins45 said:
I emphatically dispute that Vectan GM3 is equivalent to Accurate #5 in spite of what Vectan says. GM3 is significantly faster, probably closer to #2 or Bullseye. I loaded up some 9mm with what would have been starting loads and they blew out the primers.
Click to expand...
Rule3 said:
How could it be? GM3 is listed as a single base powder and AA #5 is a double base???
Click to expand...
Absolutely agree with all of your comments and that's why we rely on actual field testing of these "same/comparable" powders by THR members. And as more test data results are reported, as I have done already several times, I will gladly update the thread.

An example is IMR Target. Initially I thought it was comparable to Alliant Bullseye and I placed a question mark but actual field testing revealed it was closer to Hodgdon Titegroup. While powder manufacturers may want to "push" the advertising of their powders to line with certain powders, it's the actual field testing with our firearms and verification by scales, chrono numbers and holes on target that will determine what the powders are actually comparable to. When Alliant released Sport Pistol, I figured they were targeting W231/HP-38 but actual testing is showing comparable to W231/HP-38 and may be closer to N320.

And that's why we do myth busting threads and extensive comparison field testing of reloading components - To dispel reloading myths and quantify results so we can qualify what we post for the rest of reloading community. It's the "High Road" way.

Keep in mind that comparable powders listing is not meant to be precise but close enough to be used as reference. THR members live in different parts of the world and popular powders we often use for our favored loads may not be available and the comparable powder listing reference will help them develop similar loads.
 
Last edited:
bds said:
But the comparable listing was for Alliant Blue Dot and IMR Blue. Notice comparable Blue Dot and IMR Blue listing still has a question mark which will remain until enough THR member verifies they are indeed comparable with actual field testing.

Ramshot True Blue is not listed which falls between IMR 800X and Accurate No. 5 on Hodgdon's powder burn rate chart - http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf
Click to expand...


There is a nicer color coded version:)

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/burn-rates-2015-2016.pdf
 
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