What's wrong with releasing the slide on an empty chamber?

[bad_dad_brad]

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is nothing like the violence of shooting a round and re-chambering. An old myth for sure.

Anyway, no problems with Glocks.

Regardless, I seem to baby my guns and let the slide down easy. Just me.

 

[Blackhawk]

On the extractor mod...thats how they are supposed to be tuned...but it is for situations where closing on a chambered round is unavoidable. Doing it deliberatly is poor and improper technique.

Agree, agree, and agree!

 

[faustulus]

Take the weather stripping out of your car's door. Now would you slam the door on your car? If not why?

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is nothing like the violence of shooting a round and re-chambering. An old myth for sure."

COMPLETELY different scenario, Brad!

That was also covered in Mac's reply to me.

When you're shooting the gun, your finger is holding the trigger back as the action cycles. That keeps parts such as the sear from lashing against each other. I sincerely doubt if anyone on this planet can release the trigger during recoil faster than the action cycles.

Releasing the slide on an empty chamber is normally done with the finger off the trigger, and this allows parts to lash against each other.

For you, and others, who believe that this is an old myth, let me ask you this...

Why do the vast majority of the gunsmiths who built highly tuned 1911s say DO NOT RELEASE THE SLIDE ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER!

Are you and others saying that these people, whom we ask to build these guns in the first place, don't know what they're talking about?

Then why are we asking these people to build guns like this in the first place? Why are we trusting our guns with people who obviously don't know about the subject, but who just repeat old myths to us?

Seems to me that kind of reasoning is a HUGE cognative disconnect for you, or anyone, to walk into a gunshop and say...

"Yes, I'm going to give you a LOT of money to do an action job on my gun, and I want the BEST trigger pull possible, but I'm not going to listen to your recommendations on how to treat it after it's done because you don't know what the hell you're talking about..."

That sort of attitude is a real head scratcher...

But, do with your 1911 what you want.

In fact, I recomment REGULARLY flooring the gas on your car and popping the clutch from a standstill.

Everyone knows that won't hurt your car. It's just a myth.

You might also try driving with your foot on the brakes. That won't cause any wear and tear or problems. Just another myth.

 

[F=ma]

"Remember that a finely tuned sear has an engagement surface that is only about .009" to .010" wide, and, being this thin, is very easily damaged. It's both practical and wise to hold the trigger back (holding the sear out of the way) whenever the slide is cycled for any reason. You automatically do this when firing the pistol."

- Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic

Along with Mike, I think it is a matter of prudence. I also, however, change the oil in my truck at 3000 miles and am careful not to pop the dust boots when lubing the front end....Little things that might not have an immediate or obvious effect, but could very likely affect the longevity of the mechanism. Hell, I even use shock buffers!

Aside from the reasoning above, I suspect that the final slide velocity is reduced more than 10%. As noted earlier, I tend to disagree with the inelastic collision analysis in earlier posts for a couple of reasons:
1. Work is performed on the slide by the recoil spring the entire length of its movement (i.e. it's a dynamics problem, not a momentum/collision problem)
2. The force required to strip a round from the magazine (when slide veloity is near zero) and the force lost as the bullet nose is rammed into the ramp & up into chamber is not inconsequential.

I'll leave it to you physics guys to explain, as I'm just a dumb hydrology/hydraulics guy (my handle represents the only thing I learned from my structures classes!). But, as of yet, I remain unconvinced & would still caution against letting a slide slam.

 

[Blackhawk]

Good points, Mike. (I don't even let the door on the microwave oven slam shut.)

The mechanism can handle the abuse, but it will handle non abusive treatment a LOT longer.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Jerry Kuhnhausen...

WHAT A HACK! DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT! HE'S DANGEROUS!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to the S&W revolver I'm refurbing. Where's my reference book... Ah, here it is. By Jerry Kuhnhausen... Damn.



Blackhawk,

I do slam the door on my nuker. Probably shouldn't.

But I've been slamming the door on it for the past 14 years.

I want a new microwave, but this thing just simply will not die, dammit!

Maybe I'd best slam the slide on a tricked out .45 and see if it puts a round through my micro's door?

 

[quantico]

Originally posted by Bergeron
Does anyone know how much the chambering of a round "cushions" the slide going foward?
I don't see how the round of ammo would be able to slow the slide down enough to prevent battering of internal parts. I'm willing to be conviced however, so please review the calculations and help me find better data to calculate with!

You are missing the friction that is required to strip the round from the loaded mag and the friction in that system. The slide is slowed a bit by the weight of the round and the spring tension in the magazine. I know that you are trying to figure out the exact forces, but I am guessing you need more math and numbers than you are starting with.

 

[Bergeron]

F=ma, you are correct that the spring works on the slide throughout its length, so that the slide will be accelerated to a slower velocity because of the extra mass of the round of ammo.
I still need that data about the springs to figure out how much the difference is. I must email Wolff!!! If this extra stuff keeps popping up, I might just have to change my mind! (Not a bad thing at all, if the theory disagrees with observation, i.e., it'll screw up your trigger, the theory must be discarded or modified.)


quantico, you are correct. However, I cannot measure said friction or find it anywhere. If you could measure/find it, I would be appreciative.


Mike, you bring up something that I had not considered, that by holding the trigger on a 1911, the sear gets moved "out of the way" of the rest of the internals. I didn't figure that I knew something that 99% of pistolsmiths don't, I thought there was some information that I was not aware of, as appears to be the case. I was (and still am) of the opinion that the change in slide velocity from chambering just isn't enough to prevent damage.


I remeber an article from one of the armed services indicating that a troop was to cycle the slide of his 1911 with his finger on the trigger. I find that very interesting when I read your statements.


This does cause me to pose a further question: If the sear could be made stronger, would the slide release on an empty chamber be "better"?

 

[BigG]

URBAN LEGEND ALERT!!

Thanks for helping to perpetuate another URBAN LEGEND.

Gotta run. I'm channelling Gale MacMillan for barrel break-in advice. Where's that valve grinding compound?

 

[BigG]

Why do the vast majority of the gunsmiths who built highly tuned 1911s say DO NOT RELEASE THE SLIDE ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER!

For MIKE IRWIN:

Because they are putting an unsafe firing mechanism in there and they know it!!! When fire control parts are likely to break you have "tuned" (lightened) your trigger pull too much. They know it and won't stand behind their work. Solution: shoot a four or 5 pound trigger like comes with a standard 45 Auto.

Didn't know you guys all have bullseye pistols for carry.

 

[BigG]

BTW, I agree with Jerry Kuhnhausen, too. But he was talking about building a Bullseye Colt 45, quite another thing than just "any old 1911."

 

[Col. Mustard]

Friction vs. bullet weight

2. The force required to strip a round from the magazine (when slide veloity is near zero) and the force lost as the bullet nose is rammed into the ramp & up into chamber is not inconsequential.

I would hazard a guess that this is a far more consequential energy-dampening factor than the mere weight of the round. The bullet has to change direction twice (up the feed ramp and forward into the chamber _/--> ), so the resulting frictional forces are more significant than the resistance of the weight of the round (the mass of which is pretty negligible compared to the mass of the steel slide) to the slide moving forward.

 

[riverdog]

Actually, the weight of the cartridge is more insignificant than the frictional forces involved. Just because you don't know how to measure something (frictional forces) doesn't make it inconsequential. The biggest issue though is the battering of the sear and hammer on match guns. On USGI 6# trigger field guns it doesn't matter much, but it isn't prudent with a finely honed <3.5# match trigger. There's a reason they call that insignificant little part a disconnector.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Because they are putting an unsafe firing mechanism in there and they know it!!!"

Uh huh. Right. Whatever.

When you build handguns like this for a living, then maybe... yourself.

By the way...

If you've ever seen the STOCK sear on the 1911 that's had the slide routinely dropped from the lock position, without the trigger being pulled, maybe you'd understand what's being talked about. Stock sears that look like serated steak knives because they're so badly chipped... Nah, that's inconsequential.

But then again, maybe the God-like John Browning's ultimate handgun isn't as ultimate as everyone thinks it is?

Or maybe people should just think about how they're handing their guns and not do patently STUPID BS with them?

Nah... that's too easy.

 

[BigG]

Written in the sensitive tradition you've made a trademark, Mike.

 

[riverdog]

a glock armorer told me it's ok to drop the slide on an empty chamber.

When Glock trigger designs start resembling 1911 triggers, the comments of a Glock armorer may be germane, in this discussion they're irrelevant.

 

[NEon]

Good way to ruin a good trigger job on a 1911 style gun. Ease it down then dry fire the trigger down.

 

[Nero Steptoe]

"but I am guessing you need more math and numbers than you are starting with."

I'm also guessing that he knows a lot more about math and numbers than he does about the mechanics of firearms!

 

[Bergeron]

Yep, that's right. I'm hoping to learn more, hence this thread.

 

[Bergeron]

I hit upon an idea on how to measure the force to strip the round from the magazine. I don't have any of the gear to make this happen, but if someone does, please, let me know. If you could take a trigger meauring device, put the detector at the end of the case, and pull foward in line with the direction of the round, you could then read the force nessecary to strip the round out of the magazine. Anybody willing to help out?

P.S. Emailed Wolff last night, hope to get a response from them!

 

[BogBabe]

I just have to wonder: If it's so bad to release the slide on an empty chamber, why is it that not a single owner's manual of any of my guns warns not to do it?

In fact, every one of my owner's manuals provides instructions on how to do it.

 

[NEon]

Do you own a 1911 style with a worked sear, hammer, and disconnect?

 

[F=ma]

My SA 1911 manual specifically says not to do it in three places...One states:

"Do not release the slide on an empty chamber! Doing so will destroy the hammer and sear engagement on your trigger pull. This can cause the hammer to fall to the Safety Stop position. It could also cause damage to other finely tuned parts of your pistol...."

OTOH, my old Glock manual seems to encourage the practice.

Regardless, why? I just don't understand why one would even consider putting a precision instrument through any unnecessary stress/strain. To each his own.

 

[BigG]

Unsafe in the sense of unreliable. Messrs Kuhnhausen, et al know they are lightening the engagement surfaces below the point of indestructability engineered into it by Moses hisself. These pistolsmiths know their trigger job IS going to fail, they just don't know WHEN. Ifn you shoot a bullseye worked trigger long enough you will need a new trigger job regardless of how you baby it. Kuhnhausen also mentions that, IIRC.

Should not apply to a standard 45 Auto, 1911 type. To each his own.