Wheellock pistol Vs Metal Lamellar Armor

[Puncha]

I've been watching the undermentioned series from Spike.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadliest_Warrior

and I have to say that I disagree with the show's methodology and approach, especially with the episode where they compared a Chinese Ming dynasty warrior with a French Musketeer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...isodes#Episode_20:_Ming_Warrior_vs._Musketeer

Basically, they show the Ming warrior wearing metal scale/lamellar armor but when the musketeer's wheel lock pistol is tested, use UNPADDED LEATHER lamellar armor draped over a target representing a Ming warrior. We all know that black powder smoothbore pistols will penetrate standalone leather armor but I have two questions....

1) What is the typical muzzle velocity encountered using the most common calibre of the 16th century when shooting a smoothbore wheel lock pistol?
2) If the target was wearing a 0.75 inch thick quilted gambeson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson, under heavy steel lamellar armor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour (about 20-25lbs over shoulders and torso), would a single pistol ball shot at 15-20 yards penetrate?

 

[wittzo]

All those shows are stupid; they compare apples to bananas.

 

[denster]

The show is interesting from the standpoint of displaying the usage of weapons of the period. Their comparison methodology is highly flawed however and the results only make good entertainment.

 

[Oyeboten]

At their best, Ballists of a Wheel Lock would be the same as for a Flint Lock.

Barrel Length, Caliber, fit of projectile, patched usually I imagine...factor in.

Any major Caliber of the period would have plenty of whallop.

 

[Al LaVodka]

They worked on peasants, horse, and lesser armor. Plate armor became as thick as it eventually did, which spelled it's and the mounted knight's demise (and arguably transformed the nature of Western civilization), from heavy musketry. But you wouldn't want to be shot by anything. Note that wheelocks were contemporaries of matchlocks and not flintlocks which effectively replaced both.
Al

 

[moharrow]

interesting question, as I have a wheellock pistol this might be an interesting experiment

let me do some research on the armor and I will get back to you

 

[moharrow]

update, I have a friend who is a leatherworker making me a section of lamelar armor which we will back with 3/4 inch of wool padding.

what would the group suggest we put the armor over for the test shot?

 

[arcticap]

Official armour testing uses a special clay that measures the impact against specific performance standards known as NIJ Standard-0101.06.

Textile armor is tested for both penetration resistance by bullets and for the impact energy transmitted to the wearer. The "backface signature" or transmitted impact energy is measured by shooting armor mounted in front of a backing material, typically oil-based modelling clay. The clay is used at a controlled temperature and verified for impact flow before testing. After the armor is impacted with the test bullet the vest is removed from the clay and the depth of the indentation in the clay is measured.[9]
The backface signature allowed by different test standards can be difficult to compare. Both the clay materials and the bullets used for the test are not common. In general the British, German and other European standards allow 20–25 mm of backface signature, while the US-NIJ standards allow for 44 mm, which can potentially cause internal injury.[10] The allowable backface signature for body armor has been controversial from its introduction in the first NIJ test standard and the debate as to the relative importance of penetration-resistance vs. backface signature continues in the medical and testing communities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest

But something like a watermelon could be covered over with some cheap clay or putty from Walmart or Home Depot to record the impact.

 

[mp510]

It is important to measure both penetration and blunt force trauma- which could cause a non-penetrating impact to be just as (or you could say potentially more) lethal than an impact a penetrating impact. This is something that is taken into consideration when bullet resistant vests are tested and rated under the NIJ protocol. In addition to simply checking to see if the projectile penetrates the vest being tested the examiners also measure the depth of the dent in the clay/putty medium that is put behind the vest. If the dent exceeds 44mm, an individual wearing a particular piece of body armor could still be killed by blunt force trauma- even though the vest stops the bullet in its tracks.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/journals/254/body_armor.html

NIJ Standard 0101.06- BUllet Resistance of Body Armor
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

There is some info on how the NIJ test is performed at the end of the first link and begining of the second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOj2PbMVvCk (6 minutes on)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rESIfjn-IEE (images of dent measurment ~min 1)

 

[Puncha]

To Moharrow,

Please remember that we're talking about metal lamellar, NOT leather lamellar. Leather provides absolutely zilch protection against firearms. My beef with the show was that if the wheel lock pistol had been tested against a metal lamellar overcoat made of several hundred overlapping 1.5mm thick steel or iron pieces backed up by a thick padded undervest, penetration might not have happened, especially since.....

i) The pistol was smoothbore and not likely to develop the velocity of a rifled barrel.
ii) Blackpowder imparts less velocity than modern propellents. If the speed of impact had only been about 400 - 500+ fps, this would be substantially weaker than a modern handgun.
iii) The projectile was a round lead ball and hence less aerodynamic than conical bullets?

Lastly, it is distinctly possible that an officer or commander in the Ming Dynasty army would be wearing a SILK padded vest. As silk is one of the strongest natural fibers and was used in late 19th century and early 20th century bullet resistant vests, this would have stacked the odds further in the Ming warrior's favour.

Also, I kinda get the impression that the show is a little racist. For instance, the weapons that they assigned to the Sun Tzu team against Vlad the Impaler clearly put the former at a disadvantage.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been wanting to test a similar theory about the long-claimed failure of Russian roundball to penetrate Tlingit armor during the Battle of Sitka. They used a combination of very thick hardwood helmets with vests that in some cases had layers of Chinese coins sewn in. I'm skeptical of it. But it would be cool to test.

The pistol was smoothbore and not likely to develop the velocity of a rifled barrel.

I've found there's no difference in raw muzzle velocity. Though obviously the smoothbore projectile is much less accurate.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I've been wanting to test a similar theory about the long-claimed failure of Russian roundball to penetrate Tlingit armor during the Battle of Sitka. They used a combination of very thick hardwood helmets with vests that in some cases had layers of Chinese coins sewn in. I'm skeptical of it. But it would be cool to test.

Interesting historical tidbit: Massacre Bay on Attu Island did not get the name from the WWII battle fought there, but from a Russian massacre in the 1700's. The Cossacks actually lined up Aleuts and had a contest to see whose musket was most powerful by how many Aleuts it would penetrate. I can't remember the winning number, but somebody's musket penetrated 7 or 9 (or 12?) Aleuts.

Some of the Cossacks in the early days had muskets with bores over an inch in diameter. They were for hunting European bison back in Western Russia and the Ukraine.

 

[Cosmoline]

My own pet theory is that the Russians were mistakenly shooting the faces on the war helmets at Sitka, and missing the actual heads of the Tlingits. I've seen some of the war helmets up close, and combined with the "neck" parts warn over the face, they would at a distance make a nice confusing target. so they think they're shooting the cranium through a wooden helm but they're really just shooting wood.

But unless there's something very odd going on, I can't see how roundball would fail to penetrate.

 

[Oyeboten]

They should'na been messin' with those Tlinkets anyway..!

 

[Al LaVodka]

I'd never heard that story -- shooting thru as many people as possible -- how sick.
Al

 

[Jefferson Herb]

Poncho Villa did the same thing to conserve ammo,lined em up seven deep for the 7x57.

 

[wittzo]

One thing you have to take into account for is the inconsistencies of the thickness of the metal, each piece of a armor was hand made separately. The edges are a uniform thickness, but depending on the skill of the armorer, the middle might be thin or thick, brittle or soft. If it was engraved or embellished, that would also make weak points in the armor. Handgonnes were first used in the battle of Crecy, but they were mostly noisemakers, they wound dent the armor if it hit. Longbows did more damage. It took a while for early firearms to compete with the crossbow for armor penetration.

I read a while back that the Bangkok police were investing in silk bullet resistant vests because they couldn't afford Kevlar. Their vests could stop 9mm and .45 ACP which are the most common calibers used according to their statistics.

The Chinese and Mongols used silk undershirts to prevent arrows from penetrating so deeply and to prevent their barbs from ripping the flesh when they were extracted. The Samurai wore silk capes with baskets underneath to tangle up arrows as they withdrew. The baskets kept the capes "inflated" in case they didn't billow out properly. When you come from a people that's been fighting for generations, you learn how to take advantage of the available technologies to save your skin.

 

[moharrow]

I am planning on testing both steel and leather lamilar armor and wittzo that is a good point on the silk. I will include that in the testing also

fyi this is the pistol i will be using for the test


it is .50 cal smooth bore