When Cops Pull The Trigger

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Every so often, there are stories about police officers accused of using unnecessary force against suspects. Each of these cases raises the difficult question of how officers make the split second decision on when to pull the trigger.
CBS News correspondent Mark Strassmann explored the subject for a report on The Early Show Friday.

He says, for police officers everywhere, the nightmare moment is when they need to make the call on whether to shoot or hold fire. More than 95 percent of the time, police never draw their weapons. But when they do, it can be life or death.

Strassmann visited a SWAT training course and, even though it is only an exercise, cops say it comes amazingly close to the real thing, using highly interactive technology produced by a company called fats. Tens of thousands of cops train on the system every year, including a group of deputies from Gwinnett County, Ga., who said they came for the adrenaline spike.

The officers run through different scenarios: hostages, domestic disputes, sometimes one gunman, sometimes more. Capt. Carl Sims, the squad's leader, rides them hard. They have to know not just how to shoot, but when.

"When you're on a team like this, you've got to be able to use deadly force, not prematurely, but should you be forced into it, you have to be able to make that decision," said Sims. "One of the first questions you ask is how many times you've had to kill someone in the last year. Never? OK, so how do I know if they can, when the pager goes off this afternoon, how do I know these guys can do it?"

Strassmann says the officers train in these controlled scenarios to prevent second-guessing on the streets. Real police shootings can divide communities.

As with the California deputy who shot an unarmed suspect, who appeared to be complying. The deputy faces felony charges. And there's the case of a Louisiana officer, who shot a suspect he thought was reaching for a gun. It was a cell phone. And in Compton, Calif., a police chase ended in a hail of 120 bullets. The wounded suspect lived, but critics said it was an over-reaction by police.

Cpl. Jeff Lavender knows the pitfalls all too well. Three years ago he tried to arrest a suspect in a car, who responded by trying to run him over.

"As I reach for the car door, I'm yelling: 'It's the police! Get out of the car! It's the police! Get out of the car!' … I get my finger on the trigger, boom, but my head hits at the same time. So I never even hear the actual bang. I just hear the shell casing afterwards," Lavender said.

In that case, in which the suspect was arrested, Lavender had a split-second to make a tough call. To show just how tough, Sims had Strassmann see for himself by going through the training course in a domestic dispute, in which a father is strangling his daughter. He's told to remember that deadly force should be a last option.

"You're going to be making the decisions. You'll decide when to use force, when to display your weapon, if at all," Sims said.

In the simulation, Strassmann's female partner gets nowhere using mace or a baton. The father keeps choking the daughter, but he's unarmed. Strassmann hesitates — too long, using verbal warnings rather than force.

"She's dead," said Sims.

While the simulation is not the same as real life, officers say it's close enough to teach a lesson.

"It's about as good as it gets," said Lavender. "You can't beat the training and you've got to have it in order to be able to function properly when it comes to an actual real shoot situation."

Strassmann says there is no database compiling how many times law enforcement nationwide uses deadly force but, according to the FBI's Web site, officers were assaulted nearly 60,000 times in 2004, resulting in 57 deaths.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/17/earlyshow/main1418827.shtml
 
Keep it civil. We appreciate our boys in blue.

There are some bad apples, but that's true in any field.

For example, statistically, you've eaten restaurant food with somebody's spit in it. Doesn't make all restaurants suspect.

(Or does it?)
 
Each of these cases raises the difficult question of how officers make the split second decision on when to pull the trigger.

I'm just shocked that the media is actually reporting that a guns trigger has to be pulled for it to fire. And, here I thought guns had a mind and autonomy of their own. :neener:
 
A very good article.

Badge, no badge...I can't imagine how it would feel to make the wrong decision when pulling the trigger.
 
I've know a lot of LEOs (both on a personal and business level) and have met
good and bad. I've been treated (in my youth, when I had my head up my
butt) probably better than I should have been and as a working, law abiding,
and taxpaying adult, less fairly by some tired, overworked, or power tripping
LEO. That is the human factor. I've worked with CEOs, Presidents and VPs
that were great and others that were schmucks. That's just how it goes.

If a dog bites me I don't go around kicking all dogs I see. Each is judged by
their own merit.... sometimes that's easer said than done though.
 
That kind of training is exactly what cops need. I wish all police departments used it.
 
IMHO: all ammo should be serialized to the officer. Perhaps those micro-tags used in explosives will survive the impact.

Next up, would be to equipt a small camera on each gun; so that we can independantly review each shooting.

After all, if cops have nothing to hide... they'ld have nothing against this, no?
 
What about Armed Security? Ive heard about the local Police and Sheriffs dept. but what about AS? My Security Department trains 339hrs annually BY the local Police instructors with national certification. Now by comparison the local Police force trains only 40hrs annually...... now what does that tell you.
 
RyanM


Unfortunately many Departments cannot afford training like this. Many towns can hardly pay for a Police force never mind cool gadgets like K_Dawg suggests.

The cops around here make less than some Security jobs. These guys that have kids live in public housing and get welfare checks since they live under the poverty line.

I guess we could do away with local Police, they are too hard to control anyway. Maybe Federal Police is the way to go.They could use technology that local Police do not have access to.

A Federal Police force would have better access to our military personnel and equipment. With these additional resources and no local Political control the Police would be able to operate more efficiently.
 
Actually Absolute Protection Inc. is one of the largest Security Agencies in the Nation. We have everything from unarmed guards to Armed/Active Police officers, Investigations, and SRT Teams. To be an Officer in our organization you "must" be state certified as an Officer and classes are availible for national certification. The Federal Government only has authority involving Fed. Statutes or personel. Thats like the Military OSI, CID, NCIS. Investigating "small matters". Just give a state certified Officer a car and draw a contract with the company.
 
RyanM


Unfortunately many Departments cannot afford training like this. Many towns can hardly pay for a Police force never mind cool gadgets like K_Dawg suggests.

The cops around here make less than some Security jobs. These guys that have kids live in public housing and get welfare checks since they live under the poverty line.

I guess we could do away with local Police, they are too hard to control anyway. Maybe Federal Police is the way to go.They could use technology that local Police do not have access to.

A Federal Police force would have better access to our military personnel and equipment. With these additional resources and no local Political control the Police would be able to operate more efficiently.

It wouldn't have to be high tech. I mostly meant scenario based, shoot/no shoot training. It wouldn't be that expensive to buy some cheap airsofts or paintball guns (preferrably airsoft, to be able to use a gun that's the same as the duty piece), and either hire some people to play the criminals, or even have other cops do it.

And then just go through scenarios that may actually happen, including scenarios where lethal force isn't required. Traffic stop, guy immediately gets out of car and reaches under his jacket. For one cop, he pulls a gun and starts shooting. For the next guy in line, he pulls out a cell phone. Stuff like that.
 
As long as an officer knows it is a scenerio, you will never really get the "Oh Sh**!" factor. Have you ever driven a car, and you're relaxed, then all of a sudden a car comes flying out of nowhere and almost hits you? Remember how time slowed down, and your adrenaline peaked before you had time to react? That's what it is like. You can put cameras on guns, cars, etc., but a shooting isn't something you can play back in slow motion and analyse. What counts is what the officer saw (or thought he saw), and his perceptions. Sometimes and officers perceptions can be wrong and the dead suspect was reaching for a comb. Sometimes the officers perceptions are wrong, and the officer is dead. We are human, perceptions can be tricky, sometimes we make mistakes. Some people make a mistake at work and the fries get burnt. We make a mistake and...:uhoh:
 
As long as an officer knows it is a scenerio, you will never really get the "Oh Sh**!" factor. Have you ever driven a car, and you're relaxed, then all of a sudden a car comes flying out of nowhere and almost hits you?

And? By that logic, there's no point in doing any training at all.
 
That's not what I said Ryan. I said basically that no scenerio training will give you the same feel as the real thing. Of course you must train. There's an old saying "You play like you practise." When you do get into a gunfight, you resort to your training (good, bad or otherwise). The cops that died in the "Onion Fields" died with their brass in their pockets, because that was how they were trained in the academy. I guess what I don't feel comfortable with is when civilians want to second guess police, especially through videos. Videos are extremely important, but they should be reviewed by people that are experts in police tactics and training. I am a new member to this website because there are a lot of people here that have a great deal of experience, and I want to learn from them. I also hope that with my training and experience, I too can contribute to someone else.
 
That's pretty much a given, though. No training can possible replicate field conditions. The best that can be done is to make training approximate real life as much as possible, and hope it works. Of course, the problem is, it takes a "baptism by fire" to sort out what works and what doesn't. It's pretty obvious that the training most police departments give, aimed shooting at sillhouettes from 7 yards, is totally inadequate. Scenario type training is much, much closer to the real thing than any kind of range practice. Certainly not perfect, but much better than the training 90% of cops get now.

Personally, I stick with Fairbairn's Shooting to Live method. I don't think any other training system has been used (successfully) in real combat nearly as much as Shooting to Live.
 
there are good cops and bad cops, just like there are good people and bad people. most occasions in my neighborhood in which i have dealt with police i have been treated fairly and with respect.

most...

there was that time that i was pulled over for expired tags (a month expired, it slipped my mind during a hectic time), and when i informed the officer i was carrying (he asked), he drew his gun on me and demanded mine.

i later received my piece back, with a personal apology from the officer's superior. i hope he at least got a suspension.
 
RyanM

Just for simplicity we will not consider the financial impact of this type of training.

Airsoft play does not look or feel real. Your mind and body will not respond in the same way as it would under a real life threatening situation.

The FATS training travels thru my area ever now and again. The list to get in is always much longer than the time it is in the region. Only the lucky few get in. I have been trying to get in for several years. The guys that have got in say it adds more stress and realism to the training than they have ever had before.

Here is a pic that I saved from a real world shooting. I also have three dash cam mpg's from the incident.

I will tell you this is just after a high speed chase from the Police and it ended on a Conveyance store parking lot. Just to the left and out of the frame of the picture is a cop. The distance from the suspect and the cop is about ten feet.

Shoot or don't shoot, You only have a blink of the eye to decide.
 

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Hotpig,

A picture really does say a thousand words.

Ryan,

Where and in what capacity have you been involved in police marksmanship training?
 
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