When do I stop looking for the right load?

igotta40

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This is for my Savage 110 in 300 Win Mag. I loaded 208 grain Hornady ELD-Match over Reloder RL-22 beginning with a starting load and worked my way up in .5 grain increments. The group I got today with 69.6 is the best so far, as in the picture. I’m tempted to keep loading up just to see the results I get but this looks great to me. I want to get to where I can stop experimenting and load up batches.

I’m not loading hunting ammo, it’s for the range. I want to work my way out to the longer distances. These are all 5 shot groups. (the targets shown are the same, I put cardboard behind the paper to see the hits more clearly) 757E2D17-2721-4F1E-86D6-407C0F8E27B7.jpeg
 
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"When do I stop looking for the right load?"

Simple answer is when you get tired of looking. In my case that seems like never. If loading for a target range and the range distance keeps changing then you will keep looking. So far you have worked up one bullet and one powder. But if that is what you are happy with then stop and just shoot.

I just started target shooting with a 223 2 years ago to compete in an informal rifle league at our range. I am now on my second Savage and ready for another or to rebarrel this one. I have also processed through four 69gr bullets, two 62gr bullets, two 55gr bullets and five different powders all for just this 223 round.

I have come up with a load that I will be shooting for this league but again I am not certain that it is the optimum load for this combination. I moved to a new bullet and have only shot it with one powder.
 
One group does not the story tell. If the 69.6 group is repeatable and consistent and others are not, then you have your answer. Hard to tell from your pic, but it actually looks to me like the 70.1 is more horizontally linear. If so, then that means 70.1 is your better charge. I look for this first, then play with seating depth to see how tight the group can get. I'd rather see a 1" group on the same horizontal plane than a 1" group that is vertical because most likely I can find a seating depth that will shrink the horizontal spread.
 
You should be looking for stable point of impact first, it’s easy to drawn towards the smallest group, it’s best to see load development to the end of the process. It takes time to learn and I’m no expert but from your target i see stability starting at 68.6 going to 69.6, after that the point of impact starts going away.
 
Yes, I see. The possible combinations of powder and bullet types and weights are almost infinite. The trial and error method can get expensive if I have boxes of projectiles that give disappointing results. I’ll focus now on these two loads and see if the results are repeatable, then try them at 200, 300, and go from there.
 
Guess I will repeat my answer in response #2. When you get tired of looking.
All up to you. You control your load development. Can ask yourself what it is you are looking for. To ring 10" steel @ 500yds or shoot sub MOA @ 100yds.

What I did was read the forums and get a good feel for what others found worked in similar rifles, bullet weights and powder types then picked one and then got started. I think what I found is that every bullet and powder combination will shoot relatively well but may not shoot lights out.
 
None of us like this, but the harsh reality of this kind of “group size test” is a bitter truth: statistically, there is likely NO DIFFERENCE between any of the groups on your page. So picking 69.6 is effectively arbitrary.

When you look at all proven long range development methods, NONE are based on 100yrd group size. We’re looking at point of impact consistency relative between charge weights, and looking at velocity shifts, then we’re looking at group shapes, and repeating those groups and their next door neighbors multiple times to confirm the observed results aren’t just coincidental within the statistical distribution.

So I wouldn’t necessarily say I see anything conclusive in this target array - and I WILL say the coincidence that 69.6 gave the smallest group among those others is NOT supporting a statistically valid conclusion from this test that 69.6 is the best charge. Vertical consistency is pretty good between a few of these, but there’s a pretty big horizontal shift in there (less important than vertical). It LOOKS LIKE there wants to be a node between 69.1 and 70.1, but you don’t have the edges of that node defined, so it may just be a matter of knowing the two lower charges weren’t the same, but not knowing which is really a node. I’d decide for myself whether I wanted to shoot this again, but with more charges above the top of this test, or load more in between, because 1/2grn increments are huge, and a lot can be happening, even in a magnum case, between these groups.
 
RL 22 has caused me problems. I had worked up a load using it when the temps were in the 50's, the next time out it was mid 70's. Blew primers so I stopped and went to another powder. I did get excellent accuracy with it but blowing primer are a turn off and I was about 1 gr below max.

If you have a crony use it and watch your velocity vs temp. Here in Texas it can me in the teens 1 day and 4 days later 70. So it jumps allover the place.
 
( typing while having my coffee)
I would prefer not to exhaust a barrel looking for a load that’s right in front of me, I’ll make it real simple and mark green as stable and red is starting to shift. If you’ve consulted any load data charts you see that you are about topped out, i would probably test the green areas in smaller increments at greater distances to (solidify) where the shift is. B804A9CF-65A6-410E-B694-1F1C2D476321.jpeg
 
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"When do I stop looking for the right load?"

Simple answer is when you get tired of looking.

How many sets of car keys are lost at your house?

Stop looking because you’re tired of looking? Wth? I’d warm my son’s hind end if he told me he stopped looking for something just because he was tired of looking.

Stop looking because you’ve either found what you seek, or you’re satisfied that you have found what you seek cannot be found in this space.

For me, most of my load development ends LONG before I’m tired of looking. I run tried-and-true methods which are proven to deliver the results I seek, and usually find them quickly. If I don’t quickly find productive results, then THAT is the quick result in and of itself - that dog don’t hunt, so find a new dog. Which doesn’t happen often - but even if/when that does happen, and I don’t quickly get what I need, what do I have if I quit looking before I find it? Nothing, but a few new ways to NOT make a lightbulb.
 
^ This requires one to set a goal before that start and it needs to be quantifiable. X number of shots, at Y distance and in </= Z inches.

The never ending story comes about from qualitative goals like “most accurate”.
 
When do you stop looking?

My answer is it depends.

On my match rifle, a 6.5-284, I set a goal and stopped when I reached it. Why??? Because the 6.5-284 is a known barrel burner with a very short competitive life. I wanted to shoot it for at least a season before replacing the barrel! Same thing with my 220-250AI. In other calibers like 223, 308, 45-70, ect, I never stop trying things.
 
That is a loaded question OP.:D
I generally try two or three different propellants and several bullets in my workups. I generally find a couple nodes concentrating on horizontal shift with each workup then concentrate on the widest node as it is generally more stable. Then use the center of that to tweak things as I test. I stop when I hit an acceptable result at my max distance I will use. Trying for one hole is good in theory but rarely a reality.
 
How many sets of car keys are lost at your house?

Stop looking because you’re tired of looking? Wth?.

Naw then I just ask the wife and she usually gives them to me pretty quickly.

My reference too was because you found something that met your goal and you were happy with it.. Not that you quit because you found the best load. I can't define what that is for someone else.
 
OP here, I REALLY appreciate the responses and helpful information! I’ve been reading and watching YouTube videos on the subject of hand loading to get where I am now, which has been about 2-2.5 years worth. Maybe I’m missing something or over complicated my understanding, but I see the term “node” used a lot, and I don’t know or understand what that is. I have a chronometer but I haven’t begun using it yet, because up to this point my loads haven’t been nearly as good as what I just shot yesterday.
 
OP here, I REALLY appreciate the responses and helpful information! I’ve been reading and watching YouTube videos on the subject of hand loading to get where I am now, which has been about 2-2.5 years worth. Maybe I’m missing something or over complicated my understanding, but I see the term “node” used a lot, and I don’t know or understand what that is. I have a chronometer but I haven’t begun using it yet, because up to this point my loads haven’t been nearly as good as what I just shot yesterday.

It is a statistic value that will suck all the life and fun out of reloading!:eek: statistics!!
Unless that kind of thing is what you like.

Remember the good group that you posted above has to be repeatable each and every time you use that load. There are so many variables that will change each time. May be the best powder charge in the world but what about wind, temp phase of the moon, how are you feeling that day?
Depends on what kind of shooting you are doing. Want to win trophies and competition or just go the range and shoot?
 
This is for my Savage 110 in 300 Win Mag. I loaded 208 grain Hornady ELD-Match over Reloder RL-22 beginning with a starting load and worked my way up in .5 grain increments. The group I got today with 69.6 is the best so far, as in the picture. I’m tempted to keep loading up just to see the results I get but this looks great to me. I want to get to where I can stop experimenting and load up batches.

I’m not loading hunting ammo, it’s for the range. I want to work my way out to the longer distances. These are all 5 shot groups. (the targets shown are the same, I put cardboard behind the paper to see the hits more clearly)View attachment 1126774
Id leave it right where you have it.
 
I see the term “node” used a lot, and I don’t know or understand what that is.

@South Prairie Jim has a few pictures he can post here, or which can be seen in his Long Range Load Development thread which depict Audette Ladder tests and very clear nodes resulting from them. In that test, the node is identified as groups of charge weights which all have the same or similar vertical points of impact, relative to one another.

The Newberry OCW test - which is how SPJ is evaluating your target above - also defines nodes by adjacent charge weights which all impact at the same vertical location (relative to separate points of aim) compared to one another.

As an example: here’s a Newberry test I evaluated for a shooter on another forum several years ago. Analyzing these targets, we can see there is some variability in vertical position of the group from one charge weight to the next at the left end, then between loads 5-6, the vertical position flatlines, and then starts to rise again from 6 to 7 to 8. Somewhere between 4 and 7 is the center of a “node.” This means the load there is very forgiving of errors - a little variability in neck tension or charge weight, primer power, case capacity, bullet weight, etc will not be as influential on the point of impact for those bullets as it would be for a load at the left, outside of the node.

1A3BAEB3-0AAA-4157-AA71-03F41B7689BC.jpeg

Projecting these bullet holes onto the same target, we would have an Audette Ladder test. The same analysis is done - we look for adjacent charge weights which cluster around the same vertical position. Again, we see a node in the 5-6 ballpark where the adjacent charges have nearly the same vertical position, so we’d test again in this area to confirm the edges and center of this node. 9B90455B-3B56-4DC7-B550-215B2461767A.jpeg

Another proven load development method is the Satterlee Velocity Curve method. In this test, we eliminate the challenges of mechanical and environmental influences on our group sizes and bullet POI’s and focus on the velocity. In this test, again, we’re looking for adjacent charge weights which are relatively the same, meaning increasing charge weight doesn’t increase velocity over a couple or a few charge weights. This example actually includes 3 nodes, one at the bottom, one at the top, and one in the middle. We can see a window at 41.6-41.8 where those 6 shots only varied by 7 fps, and the standard deviation was only 2.4fps. Which is tighter than MOST ammo would offer even if all of the charge weights were the same, let alone half and half loaded at 0.2grn apart. So in that test, loading at 41.7grn meant I could get the same velocity despite an error in powder charge accuracy up or down by at least 0.1grn, reducing my vertical dispersion downrange, compared to the same error, say, if I loaded at 42.0, where an error 0.1 up vs 0.1 down might mean ~30fps difference, promoting up to ~6” of extra vertical dispersion at 1000yrds. So I load “in the node” at 41.7 instead of 42.0.
E9AC5530-E446-4F6D-B450-F6E16BBA1A42.jpeg
 
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