When is a "NO GUNS" sign invalid?

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Phantom Warrior

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This is something I've been wondering about for some time. Most states have very specfic requirements in their carry laws regarding the size, language, location, etc of a sign banning guns. For example, in Minnesota the requirements are as follows:

1. "The requester has prominently posted a conspicuous sign at every entrance to the establishment containing the following language: '(INDICATE IDENTITY OF OPERATOR) BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES.' "

2. " 'Prominently' means readily visible and within four feet laterally of the entrance with the bottom of the sign at a height of four to six feet above the floor."

3. " 'Conspicuous' means lettering in black arial typeface at least 1-1/2 inches in height against a bright contrasting background that is at least 187 square inches in area."


What happens if a sign does not meet that criteria? I've seen signs at stores that read "No guns" or something similar. Is that sign valid and legally binding?

Yeah, I know "concealed means concealed" and all those other catch phrases I'm sure people will spout in this thread. But hypothetically, if I got caught how strong of a defense would the argument that their sign didn't meet legal requirements be?
 
isnt it against the law to get caught anyway? what i mean is..... if someone sees your piece youve broken the rules of keeping it consealed havent you?
 
MN state law clearly defines the sign necessary to comply with the law; however depending on the court and judge you draw they may or may not choose to follow the law to its literal writing. I have seen "No Gun" scrawled on a torn envelope taped to the window of a store... is this legal??? Probably not but would you like to be a test case?
 
In Florida, there is no provision in the law that validates signs prohibiting concealed carry. In the event you are caught carrying in a location that does not want you, you will be asked to leave. If you do not leave, you can be charged with armed trespass.
 
In the event you are caught carrying in a location that does not want you, you will be asked to leave. If you do not leave, you can be charged with armed trespass.
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Yup. Kind of like asking if a store doesn't have a 'No Shirt, No Shoes' sign, and you go in without shirt and shoes, and they kick you out, what's your legal recourse? None, really.

It's their business property, not yours. So, if they ask to you leave, for whatever reason, it's best to do so. Otherwise, police and trespassing charges are coming.

As far as the legality of the sign goes, yes, it has to be whatever the state law calls for in order for things to get nasty. But again, do you really want to go to court and fight a business owner about it? I don't.
 
rustymaggot said:
isnt it against the law to get caught anyway? what i mean is..... if someone sees your piece youve broken the rules of keeping it consealed havent you?
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Not in Minnesota. Open carry is legal here.
 
Depends on your state. In PA, the only signs that are valid are ones in front of jails, post offices, courthouses (courtrooms, DA's offices, Judge's chambers, etc. only, in some counties), state parks, and other federal or state property. Going by the letter of PA state law, it's actually legal to carry concealed in public schools. Also legal to pack in places of worship, bars, and other places that some states prohibit.
 
Bear in mind, too, that irrespective of the law concerning CCW and signage, any private property owner has the absolute right to prohibit anything he/she wishes on his/her own property. If someone wants to prohibit firearm possession on their own property, their rights as property owner trump any law permitting CCW permit holders to carry. If they inform you of their policy, and ask you to leave, you have no rights whatsoever under the law to defy them, even if you're a permit-holder. The only exceptions would be law enforcement officers, who are carrying firearms on duty.
 
Preacherman said:
If someone wants to prohibit firearm possession on their own property, their rights as property owner trump any law permitting CCW permit holders to carry. If they inform you of their policy, and ask you to leave, you have no rights whatsoever under the law to defy them, even if you're a permit-holder.
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Of course. I was just wondering under what circumstances I could legally be prosecuted (i.e. arrested and dragged into court) for carrying.
 
Armed trespass? Test case? Not in MN. Why not read the Minnesota law? The MAX penalty is a petty misdemenor and a $25 fine.

I encourage you to go to
http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/

There's talk over there all about the Minnesota law, not 50 different versions you'd get over here.
 
In Minnesota the signs mean nothing. There is no penalty for ignoring the sign. The penalty only attaches if you are asked to leave and you don't.

Again, in Minnesota the signs mean diddly squat.
 
Of course. I was just wondering under what circumstances I could legally be prosecuted (i.e. arrested and dragged into court) for carrying.
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I agree with phorvick. However, I disagree with the OP in that it does not appear to me that "most" states specify the signs' language and/or appearance in statute. Some do, but I do not think it is most.

Bottom line is, if they post a sign that complies with the law, you have broken the law if you proceed beyond the sign while armed. If the law specifies the sign and the sign does not comply, you have not broken the law by entering the premises armed. They can still ask you to leave, and if you leave when requested to do so you still have not broken the law.

I am less clear about states (such as my own) that do NOT spell out the "required" sign in statute. If I enter (while armed) a store that has a "No Gunz" sign crudely scrawled on a torn envelope in the window or on the door, it does not appear that I have violated the state's gun laws, but I may have violated the state's trespass laws because I know I have a gun and the owner has given me notice that he doesn't want me in there.
 
*Sigh*

How hard is this? If you know an establishment is posted, you have three choices:

1) Decide you don't want to go in unarmed. So you go elsewhere.

2) Comply with the establishment's post. Leave your gun in the car or at home and go in.

3) "Ain't nobody goin' ta tell me whut ta do with mah guns!" Go on in and take the chance of facing the consequences. Betting on a technicality about the sign is a real stretch.

K
 
When the law specifies a strict signage, it MUST be followed.

Whenever I see a handicapped sign without all the required verbage.. SCORE a good parking spot. Ditto for 'towed at owners expense'. The signs have to say the proper thing to be legal.
 
Kentak, that's not really true, at least in some states. In Texas, a property owner is required to give you actual notice of their prohibition of concealed carry. That can be orally, in which case you must immediately comply, or they can post a sign. But it can't just be any sign. It has to be the EXACT sign required by the Texas Penal Code (Section 30.06 interestingly enough) or you can ignore it. Now, if they post a bad sign and you ignore it but once inside the owner calls out "by the way, anyone with a gun has to leave" then you have to leave. If you dont get actual notice (because the sign doesn't count) then you are there legally.

Of course, there are some places that the law states you can't carry even if no sign is posted.

Also, someone mentioned above that if you print or a person sees your concealed weapon then you have violated the concealed carry law, I don't think that's true either, at least not in Texas. Here, you only have to take reasonable efforts to conceal.
 
TX1911--

I understand what you are saying. And it certainly sounds like TX gives every benefit of the doubt to the CCW person. I'm sure you know that many states allow CCW, but may be less forgiving of violations of the *intent* of the law.

All I'm saying is this: If I know the intent of an establishment is that they don't want CCW inside, then I'll comply, either by not going in at all, or by leaving my gun in my car. If I decide to disregard and go in armed, I should be adult enough to accept that something embarrassing or worse (depending on local law) may happen and accept that.

K
 
Here in VA (if memory serves me correctly) the type, position, wording, etc. of the sign is not established in the laws regarding CHPs. This might be why if I walk into someone's establishment and they have a sign posted, nothing can be done to me unless they ask me to leave and I don't (assuming they don't sell alcohol). Even then, it isn't a gun crime, it is a simple trespass charge. That being said, if they have it posted, I don't go in. I don't want to do business with them.
 
Bear in mind, too, that irrespective of the law concerning CCW and signage, any private property owner has the absolute right to prohibit anything he/she wishes on his/her own property. If someone wants to prohibit firearm possession on their own property, their rights as property owner trump any law permitting CCW permit holders to carry. If they inform you of their policy, and ask you to leave, you have no rights whatsoever under the law to defy them, even if you're a permit-holder. The only exceptions would be law enforcement officers, who are carrying firearms on duty.
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But some limitations may [should] apply.

For example, once yopu open up your private property to "the public," there may be limits on who you may legally exclude. If a store posts "no blacks" or "no jews" they may also not be patronized by white Christains because they don't like the owner's bigotry. If a hotel posted the same, they would probably be breaking the law. If I refused to rent to you for those reasons, I would be preaking the law.

Those rights currently enjoy popular support. Second Amendment rights, which I believe to be on the same level and protectable, do not enhoy current popular support, so bigotry abounds unchecked.
 
~not 50 different versions you'd get over here.
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:D Very true statement.
Each state is different. General questions like this will quickly turn into 50 sub-threads within a thread.
Good luck. :)
 
Another point of view

While I currently am carrying off duty, this is a question that has interested me, especially since my state is starting Right to Carry Concealed this coming January 1. One thing I have always recommended to anyone who encounters any type of discrimination, such as this example of discrimination against those choosing to legally arm themselves, is to always take the appropriate action.

In this case, the appropriate action, whatever your decision on whether or not to enter the business, is to let the owner know, corporate or otherwise, that you are not going to patronize their business and why. Do not bother to argue with the employees. Communicating with the owner calmly, rationally and in a well spoken or written way has far more impact than an argumentative display made at the time of the offense. Be sure to stress to these short sighted, petty tyrants that they are losing MONEY, yours and anyone else's who will listen to you.

I regard this as a constitutional/civil rights issue. One of the first great successes of the Civil rights movement was the Birmingham bus boycott. Hit people or companies in the wallet and they will sit up and take notice.
 
I think it would be inadviseable to try to establish some general rule that works everywhere. Know the laws of your state or the state you are carrying in.

Otherwise, move to a bigger state so you don't have to worry about multiple state laws all the time. :)
 
I've carried in places with "No Guns" signs, because they mean nothing. They aren't the legal signage needed to keep CCW out, and of course criminals won't follow it either. Useless.
 
When you take a CHL class in Texas.....

you are taught, and tested, about proper signage. It is spelled out in the book you are given covering the laws......chris3
 
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