When is a rifle classed as an antique .

[mr wack]

Hi , I'm not sure about the law regarding antique guns .
I am thinking of selling an 1891 Arg Engineers carbine and I believe it was manufactured in 1893 by Loewe , Berlin .
I'm thinking it might have antique status so it can be shipped straight to the buyer without all the " FFL---C&R " stuff to contend with, am I right ?.
Also anyone have any idea of approximate value on such a rifle ? ,,,( I'm trying to get enough pennies together to get me a repo dragoon revolver ) .
anyway folks that's another story ..
thanks for any input and info in advance, have a great week all,,

 

[sage5907]

The ATF prints a paper back book named "Firearms Curios or Relics List" ATF Publication 5300.11 Revised December 2007 that lists the firearms that can be purchased or sold with a Curios or Relics FFL. I would think that anyone who has a C&R license could buy your gun legally. Just ask them to send you a signed copy with their payment.

 

[rbernie]

On paper, any firearm manufactured prior to 1898 is not classified as a regulated firearm by the ATF. However, many FFL's have logged pre-1898 guns into their bound book and treated them as firearms.

 

[boom boom]

A firearm that can be proven to be manufactured before 1898 is an antique by federal law: 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(16). As far as the ATF is concerned, antique firearms might as well be a hunk of raw steel but that may not be true under state law and of course I would not rely on federal antique status if I was an ineligible person to own firearms under state law.

Ludwig Loewe Corporation was merged into DWM before 1898 and thus any firearm so marked is considered an antique. The Krag model of 1896 likewise is an antique. Where it gets difficult as many of the DWM cannot be proven to be manufactured as no reliable serial number by date productions records makes it problematic to assume when the firearm was actually built and thus the ATF considers them firearms under the NFA. Krag 1898 models are similarly problematic as are Swedish 1896 model Mausers in that some would be considered antiques and some would not.

Given the widespread confusion over exactly what is antique and what is not, some dealers and individual sellers treat all firearms as needing to be logged whether or not the ATF requires it. For FFL's that do not have the time nor patience to acquire knowledge about antique status, they prefer to just treat them all as firearms under the NFA.

Dealers that regularly deal in collectibles and have the knowledge to safely do so, will sell and ship items as antiques. They generally get a higher price for doing so from the items. Not sure what the postal office says about an individual sending an antique firearm through the mail but given the recent 10th Circuit decision regarding post office grounds and concealed carry, probably not a good idea to send from the post office but might be ok to send via parcel pickup at your home. Fedex and UPS have their own policies.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

 

[Jim Watson]

Actually that is a firearm "manufactured IN or before 1898."
So it should really be "pre 1899" but the year early term is probably impossible to correct.

Any road, you have two problems
State law more restrictive than federal,
And dealing with a hysterical shipping clerk who panics if you say Gun.

 

[mr wack]

thanks guy's,
my ser # indicates it is of 1893 manufacture,,,, I think , all very confusing for a simple fella to folla ,,,.
I'll have to check on shipping options if I ever sell it,,,

 

[boom boom]

Jim,
Did not want to complicate things--you are correct as to the letter of the law which sets as before 1 January 1899 where the receiver (serialized) must have been made.

Given that a lot of firearms from that period may lack serial numbers (especially cheap shotguns and .22's), lost production records, foreign production records, and some manufacturers, there is a considerable gray area especially in mausers and Krags about when the receiver might have left the factory and under what circumstances. Flayderman's Guide to Antique Firearms has a pretty useful section and the folks at Gunboards may also be able to help on a specific firearm.

Here is a useful Q/A for antiques
http://www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html

 

[AlexanderA]

The ATF prints a paper back book named "Firearms Curios or Relics List" ATF Publication 5300.11 Revised December 2007 that lists the firearms that can be purchased or sold with a Curios or Relics FFL. I would think that anyone who has a C&R license could buy your gun legally. Just ask them to send you a signed copy with their payment.

Not relevant. There are two entirely different things: "antiques" made before 1899, which are not regulated at all, and "curios and relics" made 50 years prior to the current date (or specifically ruled as such by the ATF and included in their published list), which are eligible to be sold across state lines to holders of 03 FFL's.

For example, all M1894 and M1896 U.S. Krags are unregulated "antiques," whereas M1898 Krags may be "antiques," or may be "curios and relics," depending on the exact date of manufacture as established by the serial number. All M1903 Springfields, M1917 Enfields, M1 Garands, and M1 carbines are "curios and relics."

If the gun was actually made before 1899, no FFL is needed.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

There was a bill in Congress to make antiques a sliding 100 year limit analogous to the 50 year limit for C&R. It did not go anywhere unfortunately.

Mike

 

[mr wack]

Well I have my curiosity cured, stick a fork in it ,,,
I guess i'll be going down to S&S with it..
Thanks fellas you've been a big help here I appreciate it..

 

[AlexanderA]

BTW, we owe the definition of "antique" guns (the 1898 cutoff date) in the GCA of '68 to lobbying by the late Red Jackson, the famous Dallas, Texas, antique gun dealer. It is an arbitrary date, but I believe that picking that date had something to do with the landmark '98 Mauser rifle being introduced in that year. The general feeling seemed to be that the '98 Mauser was unquestionably a "modern" design. So the definition of "antique" could not include it. Never mind that the way the law was finally worded ("pre-1899") would mean that the very first '98 Mausers produced would, in fact, be classified as "antiques."