Serial Number on Antique Rifle

[jrfoxx]

Let me start out by saying that I have NO intention of breaking any laws, which is why I am asking my question here.Anywho, the question is, if one has an antique rifle from, say, 1895, which does not have a manufactureres serial number (as it wasnt required then) but it does have one stencied on by an importer, can it be removed (for cosmetic reasons---ugly as sin), or is it a "once it has a serial number, it always has to have one" kinda thing? Can the importers name and location be removed as long as the serial numbe is left alone? I cant find anything on the ATF's website (their search engine is as competent as their agency ).Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Good question, I'm interested in the inputs from others also as I have thought about smoothing over importers marks myself. Not a serial number in my case. Just make them less noticable since they are ugly as sin! However, like you I don't want to commit a crime by restoring a rifle.

I don't know about the legality though. Also, my items are not antiques and the answers might be different between the two.

Either way. Bump for ya and hopefully we'll get a good answer.

 

[HCfan]

I believe, and could be wrong, that once the "serial number" is in the system then it has to stay.

I have two colts that were built in the cap and ball days and then converted by colt to black powder cartriage. The FFL that I got them from had the colt assembly numbers down as the serial number.

So even though the numbers were used by colt originally to put all the pieces that were forged for the pistol to the same/right pistol, they were later used as serial numbers for them. So therefore I can never remove the assembly numbers even though they weren't originally serial numbers.

That is my understanding on the subject, but as mentioned, I could be wrong.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm not 100% sure in your case, but firearms made prior to 1898 are not subject to the same rules as modern firearms. For instance, a gun made in 1887 can be purchased without a background check, even though it is a cartidge firing gun.

 

[Ed Ames]

Even if it isn't a problem at the "firearm" level because it's an antique (and, while I personally wouldn't try because it'll do more harm than leaving it alone, I suspect the fact that it's an antique overrides the serial number laws) you need to be aware that many states have laws against removing serial numbers on all sorts of devices.

E.g.
Montana 45-6-326. Obscuring the identity of a machine.

(1) A person commits the offense of obscuring the identity of a machine if he:
(a) removes, defaces, covers, alters, destroys, or otherwise
obscures the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing
identification number or mark upon any machine, vehicle, electrical
device, or firearm with the purpose to conceal, misrepresent, or
transfer any such machine, vehicle, electrical device, or firearm; or
(b) possesses with the purpose to conceal, misrepresent, or
transfer any machine, vehicle, device, or firearm knowing that the
serial number or other identification number or mark has been removed
or otherwise obscured.
(2) A person convicted of obscuring the identity of a machine
shall be fined not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail
for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both.
(3) The fact of possession or transfer of any such machine,
vehicle, electrical device, or firearm creates a presumption that the
person knew the serial number or other identification number or mark
had been removed or otherwise obscured.


Might be setting up a trap for you or someone else down the road.

 

[jrfoxx]

Thanks for the replies so far.Honestly, I'm less interested in the serial number stenciled on as it's fairly small and isnt TOO bad looking.Its Century's "name and address" stencil that is really a bigger issue to me.Could they possibly make it any bigger, uglier, or put them in worse places? For the sake of err-ing on the safe side, I'll probly leave the serial alone regardless, (unless someone provides a link to ATF info or such that make it VERY clear its ok).I would love to get rid of Century's import stencil though.May end up being a moot point anway, as I do fear doing more harm than good trying to get rid of it anyway.......
Does anyone know of a good method to at least make the marks on a blued gun a little less noticeable? (ie:adding a little extra bluing over the marks, filling in with a dark colored crayon, etc)

 

[kfranz]

Are you sure it was made in 1895?

 

[GRB]

What indication is there that this is a serial number, and not some other type of identification number that was not serialized?

 

[jrfoxx]

KFranz-yes, I am sure it was made in either 1895 or 1896

Glenn Bartley-Honestly, I dont know if the number Century International Arms stenciled on has ever been used by anyone, themselves included, as a serial number.It is your standard electro-stenciled number/letter combo on the receiver, and "C.A.I., Georgia, VT" below it that century puts on all the C&R items that pass thru them at any point.

 

[chestnut ridge]

I believe that once it has been "issued" a serial number; then it is part
of the data base. If the serial number is removed that would be
a violation of regs. Are you prepared to spend 50,000 or so to prove
you are correct; if the F-troop makes a court case out of it?

 

[Chawbaccer]

I believe that once it has been "issued" a serial number; then it is part
of the data base. If the serial number is removed that would be
a violation of regs. Are you prepared to spend 50,000 or so to prove
you are correct; if the F-troop makes a court case out of it?
__________________

What data base would it be entered in? An antique doesn't have to go thru a FFl,
A serial number is a nice way to id a gun, Maybe the number could be engraved in an inconspicous place.

 

[EOD Guy]

As far as Federal law is concerned, there is no requirement for an owner of a firearm to maintain the importer's marks. They can be removed if desired.

Be sure to check your state laws, however. They may not allow removal of any ID marks.