When Is Color Case Hardening Not Color Case Hardening?
- Thread starter Foto Joe
- Start date
- Status
Not a clue. I have worked on them for decades, never got interested in how they were colored.
Ed Harris posts on various fora, he worked for Ruger for years. He might be able to help you.
"Case" coloring implies hardening, the meaning of the word "case". But steel can certainly be colored without hardening, by using a torch and simple heat coloring. The colored part is then coated with a varnish or polyurethane spray and the whole thing looks fine for a display piece.
FWIW, case hardening was not originally used for steel, but for iron. Unlike carbon steel, iron cannot be hardened, so case hardening was used to provide a smooth action and prevent wear from the parts working inside the action. But, as seen above, case hardening (with or without colors) is a time consuming and complex process, so as soon as wrought iron was phased out in favor of steel (when smokeless powder was introduced), many gun makers dropped case hardening in favor of just hardening the steel and bluing or plating. Some companies, like Colt, kept case hardening on some guns for purely cosmetic purposes.
FWIW, the two revolvers shown above are done in the manner I can only call "gaudy". They may appeal to some, but do not look like the old case coloring and almost scream "restoration"!
Jim
FWIW, case hardening was not originally used for steel, but for iron. Unlike carbon steel, iron cannot be hardened, so case hardening was used to provide a smooth action and prevent wear from the parts working inside the action. But, as seen above, case hardening (with or without colors) is a time consuming and complex process, so as soon as wrought iron was phased out in favor of steel (when smokeless powder was introduced), many gun makers dropped case hardening in favor of just hardening the steel and bluing or plating. Some companies, like Colt, kept case hardening on some guns for purely cosmetic purposes.
FWIW, the two revolvers shown above are done in the manner I can only call "gaudy". They may appeal to some, but do not look like the old case coloring and almost scream "restoration"!
Jim
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I have NEVER seen a torch job that looked like anything but what it was, a second-rate attempt done in the garage.
PS, Doug Turnbull, who colored the two guns pictured, is also coloring the new production New Frontiers for Colt.
I guess there's no accounting for good taste.
Thank you very much for the insult, Jim. I guess your momma never taught you any manners??? I paid a lot of money for the "gaudy" on those guns and as a matter of fact, they look exactly like 1st generation Colt's did when they were new. Ever see a case colored Colt that has been in storage for 100yrs? That's what they look like.
PS, Doug Turnbull, who colored the two guns pictured, is also coloring the new production New Frontiers for Colt.
I guess there's no accounting for good taste.
BCRider
Member
Jim, I have to say that I too am surprised at your comment. I guess one person's gaudy is another person's art. From where I sit the colours in Craig's examples are exemplary of what a fine colour case hardening should be.
I have done a fair amount of research on color case hardening over the years at the university where I teach. I have for years had students do Wood and Bone charcoal color case hardening with excellent results (not overly difficult with the right equipment). I have also studied the surfaces under electron microscopes and compared our samples with more conventional casehardened (carburized) parts, including some Pietta parts as well. Cyanide case is quite different than the wood and bone process both in appearance and the surface structure. That being said, both are processes of casehardening.
There is nothing mystical about Turnbull's processes and many people today can re-create there finishes. Most original firearms (and I have studied plenty of those) have relatively shallow case hardened surfaces. This can be caused by the length of time the parts are in the pack, which partly determines depth of carbon), temperature of the pack (which also determines penetration of the carbon layer), and the actual surface temperature at the time of quench (determines surface hardness). Actually you can get great colors at temperatures well under critical; however, quenching below critical temperature will not give ideal hardening. In carbon steels this is generally around 1335 F - 1370 F. Critical temperature is basically the temperature that will allow a phase change to occur in the material, i.e, hard, or not hard. Of course it is much more complicated than that, but essentially that is what is at stake.
Most of the parts we do are soaked at about 1425 F and quenched at around 1375-1400 F. This gives actual surface hardening and very good colors (assuming all other variables are correctly done). By the way, the revolvers posted earlier definitely look correct to my eyes.
There is nothing mystical about Turnbull's processes and many people today can re-create there finishes. Most original firearms (and I have studied plenty of those) have relatively shallow case hardened surfaces. This can be caused by the length of time the parts are in the pack, which partly determines depth of carbon), temperature of the pack (which also determines penetration of the carbon layer), and the actual surface temperature at the time of quench (determines surface hardness). Actually you can get great colors at temperatures well under critical; however, quenching below critical temperature will not give ideal hardening. In carbon steels this is generally around 1335 F - 1370 F. Critical temperature is basically the temperature that will allow a phase change to occur in the material, i.e, hard, or not hard. Of course it is much more complicated than that, but essentially that is what is at stake.
Most of the parts we do are soaked at about 1425 F and quenched at around 1375-1400 F. This gives actual surface hardening and very good colors (assuming all other variables are correctly done). By the way, the revolvers posted earlier definitely look correct to my eyes.
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
I think it is worth mentioning the water you use will play a major roll in how the colors turn out what I mean bt that is tap water V spring water V distilled water Airiated water V unairiated water all plays a part in whether you get good colors or poor colors.
Cosmoline
Member
It's just a question of taste--no need to take it personally. To me those colored cases on modern revolvers have always seemed a tad garish. But then again in the Guilded Age garish was *THE* look. Mother of pearl grips, fancy clothes in spangled purples and reds. Great big outlandish mustaches and beards. The gents were swanky, no doubt. And the women were like elaborate schooners majestically parting the waves. Plus they were all young. It was a young country.
Now we're old and cranky and like our firearms drabby black and brown. If Doc Holliday were around today he'd have his glock color-cordinated with his haux couture finery.
Now we're old and cranky and like our firearms drabby black and brown. If Doc Holliday were around today he'd have his glock color-cordinated with his haux couture finery.
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
Why Sir what evah do ya mean by borish? if I thought you don't like my mustache and soul patch I just don't think I could Bear the strain, There Now we can be friends again.
cosmoline some people here get offended about the most trivial things. you have been here long enough you should know that by now
cosmoline some people here get offended about the most trivial things.
you have been here long enough you should know that by now
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You guys do understand that those old faded Colts did not always look "old"? IMHO, most late model Colt's look a little cloudy but I"m sure that appeals to those of you who are snobbish about being utilitarian.
I have no problem with a difference of opinion, that is fine and I know we won't all like the same thing. I don't have a problem if you don't like something I own and say so. However, an intentional insult using the word "gaudy" is something else entirely and will be responded to appropriately. If you think the above-pictured USFA, which closely replicates 1st generation Colt SAA's with period-correct finishes, is "gaudy" then I truly feel sorry for you. Or is it the engraving? Or is it just because you don't have one???
Good Lord, I better not post any pics of the USFA after I get one-piece ivory installed.
I have no problem with a difference of opinion, that is fine and I know we won't all like the same thing. I don't have a problem if you don't like something I own and say so. However, an intentional insult using the word "gaudy" is something else entirely and will be responded to appropriately. If you think the above-pictured USFA, which closely replicates 1st generation Colt SAA's with period-correct finishes, is "gaudy" then I truly feel sorry for you. Or is it the engraving? Or is it just because you don't have one???
Good Lord, I better not post any pics of the USFA after I get one-piece ivory installed.
Some people make silly and incorrect posts based on unintelligent assumptions. See post #13 for a good example.
Last edited:
Hi, CraigC,
I apologize for offending you, but it is usually acceptable on these sites to express an opinion. And yes, I have seen dozens of original Colts in like new condition and in my opinion the colors are more subdued.
I have no idea why a word I used should result in such anger when the word "garish" used by another poster did not.
FWIW, here is a pic of a Turnbull restoration that looks close to the original colors.
Jim
I apologize for offending you, but it is usually acceptable on these sites to express an opinion. And yes, I have seen dozens of original Colts in like new condition and in my opinion the colors are more subdued.
I have no idea why a word I used should result in such anger when the word "garish" used by another poster did not.
FWIW, here is a pic of a Turnbull restoration that looks close to the original colors.
Jim
Attachments
Last edited:
I had a Colt 1883 for many years that had little finish left on the outside, but if you looked in the protected areas around the water table, or the underside of the floor plate what you saw was anything but subdued. I am sure the department that did color case hardening at Colt had their off days; however, the norm would have looked a lot more like the photo posted earlier.
The other thing to keep in mind with these colors is whether the finish has been varnished, or freshly oiled. Color case hardening samples really look quite different when they come out of the quench tank vs. when they have been dried. A clean surface is really quite dull, a freshly varnished/lacquered/oiled surface is bright and brings out the depth in the colors. You could also say that some of the so called subdued colors one sees in antique casehardened surfaces were the result of age darkening of the original protective coating through a semi clear patina layer.
If you want to see the way that we used to do the process at the University of North Dakota I am enclosing a video clip I shot some years back. We still do things basically the same way, but we have upgraded on furnaces and the quench tank is now a 33 gallon size.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/?action=view¤t=ColorCaseVideo.mp4
Here are a couple photos of samples we have done:
Here's a shot of the quench
The other thing to keep in mind with these colors is whether the finish has been varnished, or freshly oiled. Color case hardening samples really look quite different when they come out of the quench tank vs. when they have been dried. A clean surface is really quite dull, a freshly varnished/lacquered/oiled surface is bright and brings out the depth in the colors. You could also say that some of the so called subdued colors one sees in antique casehardened surfaces were the result of age darkening of the original protective coating through a semi clear patina layer.
If you want to see the way that we used to do the process at the University of North Dakota I am enclosing a video clip I shot some years back. We still do things basically the same way, but we have upgraded on furnaces and the quench tank is now a 33 gallon size.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v733/44-henry/?action=view¤t=ColorCaseVideo.mp4
Here are a couple photos of samples we have done:
Here's a shot of the quench
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Well Jim, I'm sure you thought, like most people on the internet think, that you could flippantly insult folks from the safety of their computer.
I didn't particularly care for "garish" either but the difference lies in the textbook definition of the two words. The operative term used in my dictionary's definition of "gaudy" being "tasteless". To me, gaudy is synonymous with "ugly". "I don't like it" or "I prefer more subdued case colors" are opinions, "that is gaudy (ugly)" is an insult. I can take a difference of opinion but nobody is going to spit on my dog, so to speak. Of all the qualities and imperfections in my character, good taste is one I hold in high regard. That's one reason for my offense. The second is what exactly you are offending. The Ruger above was the result of a year's worth of toil. I was working a really crappy job, a lot of hours at that crappy job and with what was basically a bunch of work-release inmates from the local jail. The pay was good so I toughed it out. Just to pay for the Ruger, a handloading setup and the custom work. So to insult the gun is to insult all that blood, sweat and tears, not to mention the culmination of a dream. A gun, which I might add, is finished like MANY other custom Rugers of its kind. So it's not exactly a never-before-seen refinish job.
The USFA is a recent acquisition. I've wanted one for years but for one reason or another, never got one. Well, USFA is about to close its doors and while timing was not perfect financially, I found this one on Gunbroker and decided it was now or never. This is one of those rare occasions where reality is better than fantasy and it is a wonderfully built and beautifully finished sixgun. It is without fault, smooth as glass and tight as a Freedom Arms. The culmination of another dream. Not to mention that it was considered my gift for our first anniversary from a very understanding new wife who still doesn't "get" the whole gun thing. Let alone a $1200 USFA. So to insult the gun, well, you get the rest.
Then there are the specifics of the finish itself. I just so happened to take those pics in lighting that is particularly good for making case colors stand out. Which makes them appear in the pics to be much more brilliant than sitting here at my desk. Secondly, the auto color correction in Photoshop makes them stand out slightly more. Thirdly, Turnbull applies a clearcoat to his case colors so that they may stay brilliant longer, rather than looking like most faded 2nd generation Colt's you see. The clearcoat makes the colors appear more brilliant. Lastly, Colt has been selling 2nd rate SAA's to the public for 40yrs. So it's no wonder that many think that's what a SAA is supposed to look like. Well, a Turnbull/USFA sixgun is not supposed to look like that. It's supposed to look like a 1st generation gun did when it was new. Of which we rarely get a glimpse because sunlight causes case colors to fade and Colt's were never clear coated. So you are basically condemning it because it doesn't look like an old, half worn-out Colt, but rather a 130yr old new one.
I didn't particularly care for "garish" either but the difference lies in the textbook definition of the two words. The operative term used in my dictionary's definition of "gaudy" being "tasteless". To me, gaudy is synonymous with "ugly". "I don't like it" or "I prefer more subdued case colors" are opinions, "that is gaudy (ugly)" is an insult. I can take a difference of opinion but nobody is going to spit on my dog, so to speak. Of all the qualities and imperfections in my character, good taste is one I hold in high regard. That's one reason for my offense. The second is what exactly you are offending. The Ruger above was the result of a year's worth of toil. I was working a really crappy job, a lot of hours at that crappy job and with what was basically a bunch of work-release inmates from the local jail. The pay was good so I toughed it out. Just to pay for the Ruger, a handloading setup and the custom work. So to insult the gun is to insult all that blood, sweat and tears, not to mention the culmination of a dream. A gun, which I might add, is finished like MANY other custom Rugers of its kind. So it's not exactly a never-before-seen refinish job.
The USFA is a recent acquisition. I've wanted one for years but for one reason or another, never got one. Well, USFA is about to close its doors and while timing was not perfect financially, I found this one on Gunbroker and decided it was now or never. This is one of those rare occasions where reality is better than fantasy and it is a wonderfully built and beautifully finished sixgun. It is without fault, smooth as glass and tight as a Freedom Arms. The culmination of another dream. Not to mention that it was considered my gift for our first anniversary from a very understanding new wife who still doesn't "get" the whole gun thing. Let alone a $1200 USFA. So to insult the gun, well, you get the rest.
Then there are the specifics of the finish itself. I just so happened to take those pics in lighting that is particularly good for making case colors stand out. Which makes them appear in the pics to be much more brilliant than sitting here at my desk. Secondly, the auto color correction in Photoshop makes them stand out slightly more. Thirdly, Turnbull applies a clearcoat to his case colors so that they may stay brilliant longer, rather than looking like most faded 2nd generation Colt's you see. The clearcoat makes the colors appear more brilliant. Lastly, Colt has been selling 2nd rate SAA's to the public for 40yrs. So it's no wonder that many think that's what a SAA is supposed to look like. Well, a Turnbull/USFA sixgun is not supposed to look like that. It's supposed to look like a 1st generation gun did when it was new. Of which we rarely get a glimpse because sunlight causes case colors to fade and Colt's were never clear coated. So you are basically condemning it because it doesn't look like an old, half worn-out Colt, but rather a 130yr old new one.
I would think the color on the repros was faux, as the fashionistas say about women's stuff. Think about it - the guns are not Colts - they just look like em. Just like the breasts are not always breasts, they just look better than they ought to.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Ran across some original Winchesters with "gaudy" case colors and remembered this thread.
- Status
