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When the gloves come off...

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Oh, and what will trigger such an unpleasantness? Not loss of the Bill of Rights. The proximate cause would be something like having payroll taxes go through the roof to finance Social Security or Medicare.

Don't want it to happen, but if it were to happen, I'd put my money on this as the cause.

As was mentioned several times, initial rebels would be portrayed as terrorists and engaged as such.

True. The signs are all there that in the future, we can expect to see the following labeled as "Domestic Terrorists" equated with Timothy McVeigh:
--tax protesters
--2A supporters
--strict Constitutionalists

Don't kid yourself if you ever think ELF or eco-terrorists who spike trees and burn new homes in CO/CA will ever receive the FBI attention that folks on this board will...
 
M2 Carbine

If you are over 50 years old you have seen this isn't the same country you knew as a youngster.

That's correct, even for those of us a bit under 50. I'm 43, and I can remember (dimly, but I do) seeing a Luger for sale in the display case of a local department store (along with a whole bunch of other guns) when I was about 5 or 6. In NEW JERSEY. This was before NJ began its transformation into the PRNJ with its 1967 gun law (a precursor to the '68 GCA, just as the PRNJ AWB was a precursor to the federal AWB).

My uncle is 54, and he carried a rifle to school and put it in his locker. In NEW YORK CITY.

Yeah, times have sure changed, and mostly not for the better. Oh, we can buy lots of new toys (except for certain "dangerous" ones like full autos), but try to live like your grandfathers did and you'll end up in prison pretty quickly.

As for the topic of the thread, just keep one phrase in mind: Bread and Circuses. Or the modern equivalent: Junk food and cable TV. So long as the vast bulk of the nation is fat and entertained, no revolution is possible. Human nature hasn't changed since the Caesars figured that one out nearly 2,000 years ago, and because of that those who strangle our liberties in the name of our safety (or our children's) - with them in charge and not subject to the same rules, of course - will continue to have success after success. We will have to be well and truly oppressed in order to have a revolution - oppressed as in 1 in 100 or 1 in 50 being dragged off of the streets and thrown into Patriot Act prisons or just summarily shot. We're a long way from that, so the slide will continue.

I'm pretty pessimistic about our nation's future because most people just don't care. Those that do are labeled as kooks of one type or another, and even if they aren't, they might as well be peeing into the wind because very few people are listening. Sure, every once in a while we get a bit fed up and elect a "pro-freedom" candidate like Reagan or this Bush, but they never get much done in the short time that they're in office, and they're inevitably followed by someone a whole lot worse. The MSM, though badly damaged and weakened over the last several years, is still the voice of the Left and the source of news for most people. That, and the fact that our public education system has largely left our children ignorant about how our society is supposed to function and what the role of our government is supposed to be within that society, bode very poorly for this country.

spartacus2002 is right on point about Social Security - which is why, barring some huge increase in productivity (which would, inevitably, throw a bunch of people out of work) we'll have a big inflation starting sometime in the next 10 years. Taxes will be raised and benefits cut at the margins, but the only way to get out of debt is through inflation. Oh, BTW, Medicare is a FAR bigger problem than Social Security. I read somewhere last week that the increase in the unfunded liabilities of the Medicare system rose more last year than the entire unfunded liability of Social Security (and this is BEFORE the Free Drugs for Geezers Act was passed). The only thing that will cause a revolution fast are huge tax increases, big cuts in government benefits to the middle class, an outright denial of most parental rights or an outright confiscation of weapons - and the gov't isn't THAT stupid.

That all being said, and trying to stick to the topic of guns (this is a gun board, right?), I'm one of the cold, dead hands crowd. I'm Jewish, and there is no force on this Earth that will keep me disarmed while having enough finess to leave me alive at the same time. After knowing what happened only 2 generations ago to many members of my family (and to my wife's uncle, who can still tell us about the numbers on his arm and the dead members of his family), not to mention the sickness and irrationality of the anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli propaganda coming out of the Arab World, the only way that someone is getting my guns is by carefully stepping over large piles of brass to grab the hot thing stuck in my rapidly cooling hands. As an American, as one of the hundreds of millions of beneficiaries of the legacy of Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, the Adamses, Madison and the Patriots of their generation, I feel pretty much the same; and as a human being, I won't ever surrender the right to defend my life or those of my family.
 
Spartacus2002

Don't kid yourself if you ever think ELF or eco-terrorists who spike trees and burn new homes in CO/CA will ever receive the FBI attention that folks on this board will...

Folks on this board are viewed as being potential mortal threats to the FBI's masters. The limosine crowd hasn't forgotten Dealey Plaza, and the ability to kill someone from a long distance has improved - both as to distance and hit probability - quite a bit since then. What you state is true, but looking at it from their perspective this makes sense. The ELF wack-jobs only threaten average people or perhaps campaign contributors, not the pols themselves. Not, of course, that I think that anyone here is really and truly that crazy or immoral/amoral as to do a Lee Harvey on some pol, but any rational analysis of a threat would give a higher score to an irate gun owner than some granola-eating freak whose smelly, unshaven girlfriend protests animals being used for food by putting herself naked into a cage.
 
Look at the Gitmo detainees. Their detention goes against everything the USA stands for. They're not POW's (what the hell are they?)

You're right about that. We used to do the right thing and just flat out execute spies, saboteurs, and other "unlawful" combatants. :neener:
 
HungSquirrel

Apparently most of you haven't heard of Milgram's experiment. Read it. Milgram saw just how far the average human will go in the name of obedience before developing a conscience. Asking someone if he will obey at all costs in such a situation does not tell you what he will actually do in that situation.

I have no doubt in my mind that if enlisted personnel were ordered to engage American citizens that they would comply - especially if the citizens were armed. As was mentioned several times, initial rebels would be portrayed as terrorists and engaged as such.

To understand that most people in the armed forces and police need their paychecks to pay the mortgage and feed their families does not require one to be a rocket scientist. To further understand that both of these types of organizations must, by their very nature, ruthlessly crush those in the ranks who fail to obey orders (or cease to be effective) only requires a little bit of experience in life. I have little doubt as to the patriotism and morality of the vast majority of those serving this country, their state or county or town. However, I have less doubt that the prospect of dying, going to prison, losing a pension and the ability to get ANY job and having one's family tossed to the wolves, all for a cause that has little chance of success, will dissuade the vast majority of those good people from acting at a critical moment. The few who would act will almost certainly be brushed aside quite easily.
 
I hope you guys don't take offense , but when people who are sitting on the fence or are marginal pro on gun control see things like this , it's a sure way to have the rest of us gun owners who don't have delusions of the Alex Jones variety to get painted with the kook brush as well . Color me a blissninny if you want and make fun of my lack of a bugout bag or fear of Agent Schmuckatelli rapping on my door but none of my guns was purchased with any intent of being used on my gov't any more than they were bought to protect me from a zombie horde and I don't have any plans at all of running to the hills with y'all , sorry but I'm one THR'er that you can count out . I can not and will not ever put myself into the same catagory as Weaver and Koresh and I cringe when I see them mentioned as some sorts of heros or victims of the gov't - I find it genuinely disturbing .

Granted , if zombie legions in UN helmets did appear or if a spaceship landed in the Rose Garden and and a new flag went up over DC then I can see things changing but I can't see anything that would bring martial law as hostile to the American citizen without it coming from a breakdown of so many institutions that the United States would cease to exist - such as a meteor hit , attack by multiple WMD's and so on - absolutely nothing that I could solve with 5.56 would make much difference and I'd rather try to get my life as I knew it back together than try to revert to a caveman . If the United Nations can't get their act together enough to do something in places like Rwanda and Darfur or in the Balkans or Haiti how in the blue blazes do you see this huge invasion of the US ever taking place ? Maybe Red Dawn had been watched a few too many times :(
 
Back in the early '90s, the political situation reminded me of the years leading up to the American Revolution, with what seemed to me was the gradual erosion of freedoms,by an elected government (remember, back in the 1770's the British gov't was considered an enlightened institution, with a limited onarchy).

As I watched this process I began to understand the difficulty of the Founding Fathers' decision to break away from England. IIRC, only about a third of the population of the American Colonies supported independence. Loyalists to the Crown were about 1/3, with the rest neutral or apathetic.

The congressional elections of '96 reassured me that most Americans are still serious about liberty.
 
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