When the law is wrong.

[RecycledTape]

We all want to be law abiding gun owners right? What if the law says we cant own guns? What do you do when the legislation that is limits your ability to carry your natural born "God given rights". If they were God given- quoting from another thread, wouldn't we be ensured it without veil of losing it. Perhaps because natural science in laws doesn't disarm us from saying what we want or what we can carry, but rather then, that the laws of a society mandate its customs on us.

So we in America live in the land of the free and the home of the brave? Growing up in America recently proves that alot of the bravery and alot of the freedom has gone somewhere else? The whole trend in the west is this leftistization. I'm only 18 but somehow i'm guaranteed something my ancestors fought for. Will I be in the position in years to come to retake what we've lost now? Will I have to live with the fact that the family i'll come to raise will live in tyranny or freedom?

Or perhaps the real question is, what does the minority do when the majority is wrong? I know that I cannot live at all in tyranny, I will instinctively respond when it gets bad enough. But whos measuring on how bad it gets before we do something? Its time to start drawing the line on what they can and can't take. The anti-firearm establishment knows that it can't disarm us now.

Think about a ban much like the former AWB that will grandfather the ones we currently own, but prevent transactions of them much like they did on machine guns. And we think it can't ultimately happen here in this "free" society, sure its free, free to go wrong and turn upside down at any moment. Just look at Britain, where those of Locke, and liberty lived, with their own "bill of rights". Rights aren't given, they are earned by those who resist the shackles of tyranny at the probable and likely cost of death.

What are we doing to instill the next generation in the art of liberty? Do we let them go to public schools which teach them what to think instead of how to think? Do we slack off as parents, or parents to be, and let them fall to the cave of cultural peer pressure? What lessons can we apply and see forth? Action is a verb of the present, and therefore the time for action is always NOW. Whether it be something as small as having a conversation or as large as staging an empty holster today. I'll carry my empty holster till i'm 21, and I'll keep my sks in my car. But as it stands they will take no more from me, and I stand on that with my life. Alone or together, as a free American I will not be treaded upon. I will say as I please, if i be rebuked at the hands of force, I will recon that which mutes me with my 2nd.

God forbid they disarm me, for I'd rather die.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Here's how I see it. For a long while now, the forces of gun control have been making "progress" with baby steps. A regulation here, a small change of law there. Finally, it seems that maybe gun owners are learning something from the opposition. I see a handguns in cars bill , and a national recognition for carry bill. Small steps, but significant. Even if they aren't passed, at least we are pushing back. We can't win if we don't fight. By fight, I mean homeschool your children, educate friends about firearms, teach your communities that gun owners are to be accepted, not feared. Work to make small changes in public perception.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

With a correct Heller decision, 2A rights will be on the road to gaining the full constitutional protection that they should have had from Day One.

The constitution is the only thing that protects the minority from a tyranny of the majority, at least until the majority gets overwhelmingly large at which point even the constitution fails since it is always subject to being legitimately amended.

And if that day ever comes, other forms of resistance would be hopeless anyway. Historically, revolutions only work when the relatively small % disposed to taking direct action has the support of, and hence the ability to gain sustinence from, the majority.

 

[tyesai]

RecycledTape

Good post, I hope that attitude extends beyond guns.

 

[Dksimon]

I have been using the babystep process to slowly convert my girlfriend and it seems to work. What we need to do is band together and contact our representatives and start taking back our rights

 

[Wildfire]

2nd Amendment.

Hey there:
We have a 2nd Amendment for just that very reason. It is not so you can hunt or target practice. It is there so your government can not go too far.
1st to protect the state, and any possible harm. Next to protect "YOU " from your state and any possible harm.

When someone takes a public office they swear to "UP HOLD " our constitution. When we see them fail to do that or go against that, Then it is up to us to change things. For now that involves the Voteing proccess.
We all know what the future holds. It's up to you to decide how you will handle things. Someday there will be some decissions to be made.

 

[Wildfire]

History.

Hey again:
If i'm not mistaken when our fore fathers stood their ground, I believe it ended up being something like 3% of them that would not cave in to the powers at hand. That means that 97% of the gun owners of that time laid their weapons down in the village square.
3% of todays gun owners is somewhere around 2 million. That is a rather large armed force. Unregulated and scattered all over the land. Enforcement ????? How ???
BY who ? Your sons ? This why we are still free... No one has the Balls to try it. We are not toteing BPs with round balls any more.

 

[archigos]

Guns will only be needed when they are banned.
That being said, I think its very important for us to take steps to understand why many people sit idly and watch or even promote the government stripping them of their means of freedom.
Stigma. 100% of the problem with the outlook on guns in this country is a fearful stigma. The common perception is guns are evil. There are some legitimate reasons that people could be led toward this conclusion. First and foremost, guns were created for the purpose of killing - be it hunting or war. However, people need to see that there are legitimate purposes of hunting and war, and other legitimate uses of firearms that have evolved since their origination - namely, target shooting, plinking, and self defense. How do we lead them to realize that guns don't just "go bang" - that a person with a legitimate purpose pulls a trigger that makes the gun fire?
Sure, there is a -ton- of data out there that indicates this - but people that are in favor of gun control do not care about the data - they care about their emotions - about the feelings. Nearly ever interview with an anti on college campuses regarding the SCCC's protest includes a statement with the word "feel" in it - "I wouldn't feel safe if I knew there were guns on campus." This is the attitude we need to change - all the misconstrued data that people use to justify gun control is based solely on this.
Gun education should be right alongside sex education in our children's schools. (I'm not saying that sex education is where it needs to be, only that they're similar goals.) Children should be educated regarding the legitimate purposes of firearms, safe handling of firearms (including "don't touch!" rules for the real youngsters), and even illicit uses of firearms - how people get weapons illegally, where people use weapons illegally, and why they do so.
When presented with the facts at an early age in a manner they can understand, a great many more will naturally arrive at their own, more factually correct, understanding of the issues surrounding firearms. However, when all they see and hear about guns comes from movies where criminals are shooting at good guys with seemingly endless supplies of ammo, how can they not develop a certain fear? Society doesn't provide parents that dispel the idea that this is the norm with firearms - most likely, even in pro-gun households, as we don't think of these things when we watch movies... but for a child - that's a formative experience.
When people are fearful of something, they will find every and any reason to justify it - this is the case with terrorism and racism, and I'm sure there are a great many more issues you can link to this. Sever the roots and the tree will fall.

 

[Thernlund]

For my part, I think for myself. Rarely do I blindly follow. When I encounter a law that I don't agree with in principle, I then move from the black and white of it and ponder on the gray. What will happen if I'm caught breaking said law? How important is it to me? Is breaking it the "right" thing to do? And so on.

Then I obey or I don't.

At all times I will consider myself "law-abiding". The laws I obey are not always the laws of my gov't. There's what's "lawful", and what's "right". They aren't always the same, eh?


-T.

 

[Wildfire]

I agree.

Hey again :
I agree with the last poster. The other thing that is a fact. Most people that fear guns are told to fear guns by those with an agenda. That agenda is deeper then most know. It is all about control. Control over you and me.
If we could be disarmed that control would not be an issue. They would just start having their way with us. Because we have not been disarmed the control can not happen. Atleast to the point that those against us want it to be. Most all of the serious anti gunners out there in higher places (No names)
Yet,,,, are lead and followed around by armed body guards. Whats that all about ? You would think they would not want a gun any where near them.
Kind of makes one think........

 

[RecycledTape]

Looking past the veil of excuses for gun control, we need to question why the higher ups behind the momentum in the media and the public opinion would support such policy. Control, or something more sinister?

 

[mekender]

should a law get passed making guns illegal, 90% of gun owners will give them up... see, 90% of gun owners pride themselves in being law abiding and upstanding citizens, even beyond their pride in being gun owners... the other 10% will most likely have to muster on the green at dawn and take back the rights that have been taken from everyone...

dont forget that the group of people that were willing to take up arms and declare themselves free from England's rule were a fairly small bunch at the start... but a small bunch can do big things when properly motivated...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What do you do when the legislation that is limits your ability to carry your natural born "God given rights".

They are not natural born or God given rights, to carry a gun, that is. Neither natural rights or God deals with firearms. Natural rights simply hold that you have a right to defend yourself just like other animals do, without saying you get to use firearms for this express purpose.

The notion that firearms are a God-given right is equally dubious. You may beat your plowshare into a sword if you like (note context may be very relevant here) based on what is written in the Bible, but beyond that, you are dealing with an interpretation and making an appeal to disembodied authority. In terms of logical reasoning (rhetoric), basing you claim on a disembodied authority (such as a god) is a logic fallacy.

Additionally, it is hard to argue what rights are given by a supernatural entity when dealing with a person that does not recognize your supernatural entity. It comes down to the "My G/god is better than your G/god" argument.

This further flies in the face of then recognizing the 2A. Is the possession of firearms a right of the 2A which was created and given by men or is it a right created and given by God. If the latter, then the former is unnecessary, is it not? If the former, then the latter doesn't apply.

Your post sounds akin to being an emotional version of the Declaration of Civil Disobedience from 2000
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums...6&highlight=declaration+of+civil+disobedience

Geek's Declaration of Future Civil Disobedience,
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=4600&highlight=declaration+of+civil+disobedience

Declaration of Non-Disarmament
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=276881&highlight=declaration+of+civil+disobedience

Chuck Hawk's Just Say No
http://www.chuckhawks.com/just_say_no.htm

What is interesting about all or most of these is that they speak of being good Americans or being law-abiding, until which time we don't agree with the law and then we will break it. Strangely, many of the folks who make posts in agreement with these laws will and do willingly comply with anti-2A laws and claim there will come a point when they choose to break the law, but apparently until then, they choose to be in compliance with laws they do not and cannot support (which is a bit disingenuous).

It all sounds good, but where is the activism? Why aren't making a stand RIGHT NOW against laws you feel are unjust, against God, and against the 2a? Are you a member of pro-gun groups or do you consider such groups to be sell-outs like the NRA? If you are a member of such groups, are you working within their hierarchy to strengthen the group two this ultimate goal of abolition of gun laws?

 

[MIL-DOT]

Sometimes i feel like i'm a part of a very small minority, even on a forum such as this, so it's reassuring to find others like RecycledTape and Wildfire ( to name a couple) that seem to truly grasp the situation we find ourselves in, and more significantly, MAY find ourselves in.

 

[alsaqr]

Lots of gun owning folks refuse to admit that neither political party is truly with us. After six years of Republican control of the entire political process in DC we are little better off then before. Sure the AWB expired, but then it was supposed to.

Administrative restrictions on the importation of guns and ammo that were put in place by Bush I and Clinton remain in effect.

The late Republican congress did not see fit to push for US wide concealed carry. Oh sure, they did it for LEOs but could not find it in their hearts to do the same for regular folks.

The liberal Democratic party is supposed to be for gun control. Republican politicians talk a big deal then get to DC and do nothing for individual gun owners.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

And The Activism . . . ?

Looking for some action plan type stuff, guys.

"From my cold, dead hands" is not a plan.

Inspirational, yes.

Actionable, no.

So, is there a plan or an action that derives from this?

 

[Wildfire]

Yes There is a plan.

Hey there.
Not sure about others. But I have a plan as do many that I know. I will not break the law. But when the Law goes against right. Then I may have to resist. The NRA is a plan. I am a Patron member have signed up others at my expense to help.
Support good resist evil. Plan A. Plan B is when all of that fails. Man is man. Man classed us as an animal. Animals will defend themselves and their young. We were told that nature will teach us lessons. Man is in a class by himself.
And in athuority over all animals. We have God given rights that we hold dear.
This United States was given to us by God. We hold that dear and have the right to defend that. Even from our own. Most of our enemy is not some foriegn enemy. They are in our own camp.
If we know our Bible well what did God comand to do about that ?
We know that we would not get away with that type of thing these days, so what is next ? Wait.....

 

[Nagant]

Add one more to the list of those that won't surrender peacefully and submit. I promise.

 

[RecycledTape]

The notion that firearms are a God-given right is equally dubious. You may beat your plowshare into a sword if you like (note context may be very relevant here) based on what is written in the Bible, but beyond that, you are dealing with an interpretation and making an appeal to disembodied authority. In terms of logical reasoning (rhetoric), basing you claim on a disembodied authority (such as a god) is a logic fallacy.

Thats why I had it in quotation marks, saying as if God really did grant us this, we would be ensured it without risk of losing it. Its my assumption then that God helps those that helps themselves. And if that God based statement is a logical fallacy, let me state this: I will not surrender them, period. I'd rather this not be a religious discussion, I can go to church for that. The statement you quoted me on was to assure that we could indeed lose the "right" to carry at all or posses, God involved or not. Back to the subject.

So we have this form of inspiration, and whatever creed we stand by, we stand by the fact that we hold dear 2A. Some of say that we have the NRA as a voiced outlet, and it is a good one. The question I now raise, is it good enough. The forces we face have an arsenal of ABC non government and government alike that work against us day and night altering the public oppinion. The NRA being the largest venue of action, is an easily targeted one because for the most part it is the only one that is widely mainstream nationally. My suggestion is that instead of waiting to use the 2A to defend 1A, I say while the time is ripe, to go ahead and use our 1A to protect our 2A in a preconflict of checks and balances. We need our own outlets for mainstream media that can get our own checks on the table.

The Leftist media is powered by an unseen hand of financiers and political dogmas, that wish to alter our own way of life, and intend to do so with the dollar or the voice as a weapon. We must use our own intangent weapons much like they do. We need to back up NRA with other existing groups, and we need to create more. They have handful of cards and so do we, and more. We need to deafen them with the sound of freedom! We need to educate, and we can do so by setting up free self defence workshops. We need to offer as many people as we can on an outting to the range and teach them to shoot, teach them that it is fun, and teach them Gun Safety instead of Gun Control. We need to tell our families why we are armed, because a well educated family on this issue is better than an individual who contests with his family about it. Folks who can't OC, go ahead and carry your holster in that one day you may fill it, acceptingly.

And if those ideas don't prompt you, let this. If we lose this longterm war, our families, our futures, and everything we cherish will come to pass and fall at our feet. This is the issue and the battle of our lives because not only is the 2A under attack, its our whole culture and way of life that are also under attack. The tongue is a weapon in the war of words, let us use it wisely, accurately, precisely. Direct resistance is always, the last resort, and its our ace of spades in hand should that day ever come.

So lets act? pm anybody?

 

[RecycledTape]

Also, I personally think the laws now are wrong, but they aren't so wrong that I need to go torchin' with the pitch fork and drinking buddies.

As I have said last resort, and it would help if we had a definitive line to draw to prevent further loss. Yes, I'm young, and it wasn't till only 3 years ago I became active in 2A, and that was around just when the AWB expired. Personally I think If I lived at a mature age in 94' That very likely would've sparked me. Perhaps the fact that it was expirable prevented something like a rebellion from actually happening. And I can guess reasonably that the next semi automatics ban won't expire, and that my friends is the drawing line for me.

 

[dmxx9900]

A complete ban on guns will not happen anytime soon but registration and licensing will happen within 10 years in a good number of states.Then eventually AWB will come in and we will all be limited to basic pump shotguns,semi auto rifles and shotguns with 10 round capacity and no assault features,lever action rifles,Bolt action rifles,break action shotguns,revolvers,low capacity pistols,derringers,breech loaders,muskets,and flintlocks.

They will stop at that for a while so a civil war will not start and eventually they will ban all guns in 30-50 years from now if things get out of hand then.Confiscations will not happen they will make mandatory turn in program for 90 days and if it is not turned in within the amnesty they will charge the person with a felony if they catch them with the guns.Indoctrination of schools is the master plan making the next generation despise and not care for guns that the gun control extremists will be able to have a ban come through with little resistance.

But if we keep up a good fight we will be able to overcome that and be able to keep the right alive through education,exercising our rights,and spreading a positive experience with this right.

 

[TEDDY]

Message

this discussion is a waste of time.you dont telegraph your moves to the enemy.and you should know these post are monatored.Its like the ones who ask how many guns do you have?

 

[Thernlund]

this discussion is a waste of time.you dont telegraph your moves to the enemy.and you should know these post are monatored.Its like the ones who ask how many guns do you have?

I think the enemy knows pretty much what will happen. Otherwise we'd have seen an outright ban already, yeah?

No... they'll just chip away at us with new laws and regulations until eventually there aren't really enough of us left to worry about.

It's a great deal less disruptive to take out fringe elements little by little. They'll take away some wildcat caliber, then only guns without sticky rubber grips, then guns under a certain length (umm... err...), and so on. They just peel the layers, and eventually they'll get the core.

We all, every one of us, are a fringe element in some respect. This is why if you like your right to have guns, you have to like the right for everyone to have ALL guns. If you like your right to shout anti-gov't statements on the street corner, you have to like the right for others to shout pro-gov't statements on the same corner. If you like your right to drive your 60MPG hybrid, you have to like another's right to drive their 10MPG SUV. And so on.

Give up nothing, even if you're disinterested in it or even thing it benign to give up. When they take away something you don't care about, it's just a matter of time before they try to take something you do care about.

Give up nothing.


-T.

 

[Patrick Henry]

should a law get passed making guns illegal, 90% of gun owners will give them up... see, 90% of gun owners pride themselves in being law abiding and upstanding citizens, even beyond their pride in being gun owners... the other 10% will most likely have to muster on the green at dawn and take back the rights that have been taken from everyone...

dont forget that the group of people that were willing to take up arms and declare themselves free from England's rule were a fairly small bunch at the start... but a small bunch can do big things when properly motivated...

Yes, minorities make history. That is certainly true.

I wonder how that "small bunch" would have faired had King George's army been equipped with tanks, warplanes, nuclear weapons, body armor, night vision, thermal vison, GPS -- you get the picture -- and all the "small bunch" had were a couple beat-up SKS rifles Yugoslavia didn't want anymore.

In 1775 the Massachusetts minuteman with a flintlock musket was technologically on even ground with the best army in the world. Today he would be at a significant disadvantage.

But free men have a duty to resist tyranny regardless.

When the government finally says, "alright you sorry gay MO FOs, turn 'em all in," -- 99.9% will respond "yes sir (or more accurately, "yes, ma'am"), I'm a sorry gay MO FO...here's all my evil ol' cop-killing, kid-killing guns. Every last one." And it will happen. Even if the guns aren't registered. It's happened already in Great Britain, and it's happened in Australia.

As long as he can still get ESPN on a Hi-Def Dolby surround home theater system and Bud-light stays under $5 a pack, your average "talk a lot, do little" sap will be more than willing to surrender life and liberty in exchange for keeping his gilded cage.

And when in the not-to-distant future the once beautiful bars begin to lose their luster -- when our materially wealthy and quite comfortable society can no longer be sustained before the anti-civilization forces which our rulers have brought upon us, possibly a few sorry characters will wish they had taken that chance to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives... but not our freedom.

 

[Wildfire]

I agree.

Hey there:
I agree with many of you. And no one wants this to be a religious talk. But I would no be so fast to remove the God thing. Thats your ace in the hole.
Anyway, One fact stands very clear here. This is not a waste of time !!!!
Yes we know they are watching.... I hope...
I hope all the libs are watching. But I fear we are not that big of fish to fry.
I like how Re- tape puts things. Shows he has a brain. That is one of the problems with the enemy , they really beleive we have no capacity to think for our selves.
We "All of us" have become a ball less bunch. Not just us here, but all gun owners, hunters and the like. We "allow " our leaders to make laws right under our noses that limit our freedoms all of them. I know we need some laws. But how many gun laws do we already have ? I don't know if anyone really knows.