When was black powder replaced by Smokeless
- Thread starter WALKERs210
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"The last war we were involved in that employed any black power small arms was the Spanish American war in 1898."
Yep, and those were ours, old trapdoors issued to the militia! The Spanish were using state-of-the-art Model 1893 7mm Mausers. Had the war been decided by small arms, we would have lost, big time.
Jim
Yep, and those were ours, old trapdoors issued to the militia! The Spanish were using state-of-the-art Model 1893 7mm Mausers. Had the war been decided by small arms, we would have lost, big time.
Jim
WALKERs210
Member
Foto Joe Already have the smoke making bug. Bit me a long time back, was able to get treatment for it but in the last two - three yrs I have had a relapse and in my work room is more BP, lead, and molds for casting RB and conical . Wife was worried about me having too many BP guns so I had to switch back to cartridge guns for a while, but never told her that I could not load BP in the cartridges either. Yes I have a serious addiction to all things that go BOOM and no I don't want to even look for the cure.
robhof
Member
robhof
As to German desparation toward the end of the war; my cousin was in WW2 and toured a Walther factory and they had a table of 10" sections of railroad tracks that were being milled into slides for the P38's. He brought a P 38 and a PPK back from the war.
As to German desparation toward the end of the war; my cousin was in WW2 and toured a Walther factory and they had a table of 10" sections of railroad tracks that were being milled into slides for the P38's. He brought a P 38 and a PPK back from the war.
yeah... but that were fer them stragglers weren't it? My pappy used to love to tell me the 94's were already smokeless... maybe technically and all... Aloha...
"the 94's were already smokeless"...not quite. Winchester was having some trouble with the new smokeless .30 WCF..and so the very first chamberings for the 94' were the old black powder loaded .32-40 & .38-55. The .30WCF finally made it's debut in 95'.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
You may be interested to know that Black Powder is still used as an initiator to help ignite the Smokeless powder bags in large naval guns.
You may be interested to know that Black Powder is still used as an initiator to help ignite the Smokeless powder bags in large naval guns.
Cosmoline
Member
I've been doing a lot of real black loads for the .45 Colt this winter. It does cost a bit more than smokeless, but it's also a lot of fun to shoot. A compression die is helpful to get the powder down far enough to permit the bullet to seat. With my Ruger new vaq I found I have to remove the cylinder and wipe it down ever 24 rounds or so or it will no longer spin freely. The barrel also heats up surprisingly fast. It's a fun one for winter.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
If you need a compression die, you are really using more powder than you need to. As I said earlier, all that is necessary is to put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated, it compresses the powder by about 1/16" to 1/8". Forget trying to stuff 40 grains into modern cases. Modern cases have less case capacity than the old Balloon Head cases and will not hold 40 grains without more compression than is really necessary.
Depending on the bullet you use, and the brand of powder you use, 1/16" - 1/8" of compression will mean somewhere between 33 and 37 grains of powder.
Yes, Black Powder burns hotter than Smokeless, so the gun will get hot faster. If you have to wipe down the gun every 24 rounds or so to keep the cylinder spinning your bullets are not carrying enough soft, BP compatible lube.
I can shoot 45 Colt out of my Colts, clones, or Rugers all day long and never have to wipe anything down to keep them from binding.
If you need a compression die, you are really using more powder than you need to. As I said earlier, all that is necessary is to put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated, it compresses the powder by about 1/16" to 1/8". Forget trying to stuff 40 grains into modern cases. Modern cases have less case capacity than the old Balloon Head cases and will not hold 40 grains without more compression than is really necessary.
Depending on the bullet you use, and the brand of powder you use, 1/16" - 1/8" of compression will mean somewhere between 33 and 37 grains of powder.
Yes, Black Powder burns hotter than Smokeless, so the gun will get hot faster. If you have to wipe down the gun every 24 rounds or so to keep the cylinder spinning your bullets are not carrying enough soft, BP compatible lube.
I can shoot 45 Colt out of my Colts, clones, or Rugers all day long and never have to wipe anything down to keep them from binding.
Cosmoline
Member
You need the compression die precisely to fit 40 grains in a modern case. It's not a requirement but it is nice to have the option when working up a load for a particular revolver. Trying to compress real black with a bullet led to deformed cases in my experience, so I got the compression die which works like a dream.
I'm sure you're right about the lube. I'm working through a batch of smokeless lubed ones which no doubt adds to the mess. Otherwise they shoot fine though.
I'm sure you're right about the lube. I'm working through a batch of smokeless lubed ones which no doubt adds to the mess. Otherwise they shoot fine though.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
As I said earlier, modern solid head cases will not hold 40 grains of powder and a bullet too without compressing the powder quite a lot. You are really overdoing it, trust me on this. The original Folded Rim Benet primed cases could hold 40 grains of power and the later Balloon Head cases could hold about 38 grains without needing to over compress the powder so much. Compressing the powder with the bullet was adequate.
Use that much powder if you like wasting powder, but I find 1/16" - 1/8" of compression under the bullet to be plenty. Nobody can tell when I fire them that there is not 40 grains of FFg inside.
As I said earlier, modern solid head cases will not hold 40 grains of powder and a bullet too without compressing the powder quite a lot. You are really overdoing it, trust me on this. The original Folded Rim Benet primed cases could hold 40 grains of power and the later Balloon Head cases could hold about 38 grains without needing to over compress the powder so much. Compressing the powder with the bullet was adequate.
Use that much powder if you like wasting powder, but I find 1/16" - 1/8" of compression under the bullet to be plenty. Nobody can tell when I fire them that there is not 40 grains of FFg inside.
Big Al Mass
Member
Mis-post
Big Al Mass
Member
That is a big misconception. The Maxim gun was in fact adopted by the United States in 1904 and then in 1915 the improved Vickers model was adopted.
The slaughter of WWI was simply because armies had never used automatic machine guns in a proper war on that large of a scale. They had been used in previous smaller conflicts but their contribution was largely overlooked because they were so new and few in number.
Automatic machine guns were also used successfully in various colonial conflicts but that was discounted because those wars were not considered "normal wars" where armies moved in brilliant maneuvers and attacked in formation. The tactics we use now were simply not in conscious thought at that time.
T.R.
Member
It was Pierre DuPont who perfected smokless powder. He became fantastically wealthy in a very short time. One of his country estates is open to the public: Longwood Gardens at Kennett Square, Pennsylvania.
DuPont is still in business as one of the largest chemical industries in the world.
TR
DuPont is still in business as one of the largest chemical industries in the world.
TR
MCgunner
Member
Meh, I'll keep shootiin' Unique in my Blackhawk. Hate to stain all that engraving, wasn't cheap. I really like shooting my '58 Remmy or my ROA with the black stuff, tis why I bought 'em. Conversely, I really have little interest in conversion cylinders for cap and ball guns. Everything has it's place.
Cosmoline
Member
It has a surprising effect on accuracy I've found, so it's not simply wasting powder. In the .50-70 for example I found my rolling block dialed in with 500 grain rounds only when I compressed the full load of 70 grains in there. With a smaller load lightly compressed it was not as good a group.
They also seemed to be viewed as a species of light artillery primarily for long range fire.
Big Al Mass
Member
Also true.
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