ColoradoShooter77
Member
I neck size my .308 brass, all Remington. I'm getting 10 loads out of them before I chuck them. None of them are giving me bad signs like the ones above.
When your brass talks...be a good listener
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Nature Boy
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I would expect Winchester to also pay for a new bolt if these are in fact "bad primers"
RainDodger
Member
I'm interested in Curator's method of "final seating" the bullets by running them up into the rifling. I take it that you're likely not loading your rounds at the high end of the pressure spectrum, or you could potentially have some over-pressure issues using your method. Wouldn't you feel better at least measuring your chamber and seating the bullet barely touching or very slightly off the lands? Sorry if I've gone off topic... it's just an interesting subject.
By way of staying on topic, the picture of the ring indicating a soon-to-happen case/head separation - WOW! That is one obvious ring! I've never seen one quite so evident. It's very cool to see your pictures. In all my years, I've not experienced any pinholes around the primers either, so those are all valuable pictures. Thanks for posting!
By way of staying on topic, the picture of the ring indicating a soon-to-happen case/head separation - WOW! That is one obvious ring! I've never seen one quite so evident. It's very cool to see your pictures. In all my years, I've not experienced any pinholes around the primers either, so those are all valuable pictures. Thanks for posting!
Curator
Member
RainDodger:
Standard "starting-loads" listed in most reloading manuals work fine for fireforming with bullets jammed into the rifling. To get this to work successfully, the closing of the bolt must finish seating the bullet and there must be sufficient neck tension to create resistance to the forward thrust of the firing pin. It is probably not a good idea to use solid copper or brass bullets for this procedure, but most lead-core jacketed bullets work fine. Obviously, this procedure will only work for bolt action or single shot rifles that can handle a bit of resistance in chambering. Using this method I have managed to more than triple the reloading life of my expensive and difficult to find belted magnum brass.
Standard "starting-loads" listed in most reloading manuals work fine for fireforming with bullets jammed into the rifling. To get this to work successfully, the closing of the bolt must finish seating the bullet and there must be sufficient neck tension to create resistance to the forward thrust of the firing pin. It is probably not a good idea to use solid copper or brass bullets for this procedure, but most lead-core jacketed bullets work fine. Obviously, this procedure will only work for bolt action or single shot rifles that can handle a bit of resistance in chambering. Using this method I have managed to more than triple the reloading life of my expensive and difficult to find belted magnum brass.
gamestalker
member
Curator, I form all my brass by jamming into the lands, thus ensuring the brass will get properly formed on the first firing. But I don't run reduced loads, not max charges either, but slightly above mid table, and with a slow burning powder for that specific cartridge and bullet weight.
My concern and reasoning for not using a light load when jammed hard, is that the bullet may be delayed for one mil second too long, thus increasing the chance of experiencing a high pressure spike.
GS
My concern and reasoning for not using a light load when jammed hard, is that the bullet may be delayed for one mil second too long, thus increasing the chance of experiencing a high pressure spike.
GS
I thought I'd post an update. I submitted my issue to Winchester on 7/28/15 and they've not responded. They show that they received my issue, and the website says someone will contact me...but they've not. Nor do they have a phone number where I can call them...which is extremely frustrating.
They have no phone number on their website. Does anyone here have a customer service phone # from a prior contact with them?
They have no phone number on their website. Does anyone here have a customer service phone # from a prior contact with them?
gamestalker
member
I noticed you said you crimp them. Although there is nothing wrong about crimping a bottle neck, it's an unnecessary step and can often times effect accuracy with negative results, but every gun is different too. About the only time one needs to crimp a bottle neck is if you are shooting them in a MG, or in a tubular magazine.
GS
GS
All the posts in this thread echo what so many people do. I tried every type of fired case sizing including neck only with the best dies made; Neil Jones made a set in .001" increments for me to use. I got better accuracy with new cases than any neck only sizing tool or process with fired ones.
Here's my way to get long bottleneck case life and best accuracy.
Full length size all fire cases such that their shoulder is set back no more than .002". That'll end up with about .003" head clearance between bolt face and case head. It also lets the case shoulder center perfectly in the chamber shoulder. There'll be a thousandth or so shoulder setback from firing pin impact so the case head's that much more forward of the bolt face when the round fires. This method has produced the best accuracy with bottleneck cases for decades. Benchresters finally started sizing their fired cases with such dies. Their fired cases are sized down about .001" all over except the case neck which is a bit more. They saw their largest groups get smaller. Their tiniest ones stayed the same size. Sierra Bullets has been resizing their fired cases used to test bullets for accuracy that way since the 1950's in SAAMI spec chambers; I doubt anyone shoots Serra's bullets more accurate than they do.
For belted cases, I resize them a second time with a body die made by cutting off a full length sizing die off just below its shoulder and just above its belt relief. Set that in the press so the fired case belt stops about .001" short of the bottom of that body die. That sizes down the last 1/16th inch of the fired case body back down to about new case dimensions. It gets rid of that tiny ridge formed in front of the belt when a new case is first fired. Larry Willis now has a collet die that does the same thing; www.larrywillis.com.
I got 47 reloads on one Federal brass .308 Win. case with max loads before I ran out of powder at the range. A standard RCBS full length sizing die was used with its neck honed out to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Others have got a lot more reloads per cases with such dies. Nowadays, Redding and RCBS bushing dies do the same thing. Forster will hone out one of their dies for $12.
Sierra Bullets proved back in the '50's that any crimp on case mouths into bullets unbalanced them and made them shoot less accurate. That increased neck grip also caused a wider spread in bullet release force and muzzle velocity spread increased. They caved in to customer demands that their 22 caliber 77-gr. HPMK's have a cannelure put in them so 5.56 AR shooters could crimp case mouths into them; they were so afraid bullets wouldn't stay in place. Didn't matter that M1 and M14 ammo without crimped in bullets functioned perfectly. So Sierra put a knurled cannelure in them as an option. But they test them in non-crimped cases; better accuracy happens.
Here's my way to get long bottleneck case life and best accuracy.
Full length size all fire cases such that their shoulder is set back no more than .002". That'll end up with about .003" head clearance between bolt face and case head. It also lets the case shoulder center perfectly in the chamber shoulder. There'll be a thousandth or so shoulder setback from firing pin impact so the case head's that much more forward of the bolt face when the round fires. This method has produced the best accuracy with bottleneck cases for decades. Benchresters finally started sizing their fired cases with such dies. Their fired cases are sized down about .001" all over except the case neck which is a bit more. They saw their largest groups get smaller. Their tiniest ones stayed the same size. Sierra Bullets has been resizing their fired cases used to test bullets for accuracy that way since the 1950's in SAAMI spec chambers; I doubt anyone shoots Serra's bullets more accurate than they do.
For belted cases, I resize them a second time with a body die made by cutting off a full length sizing die off just below its shoulder and just above its belt relief. Set that in the press so the fired case belt stops about .001" short of the bottom of that body die. That sizes down the last 1/16th inch of the fired case body back down to about new case dimensions. It gets rid of that tiny ridge formed in front of the belt when a new case is first fired. Larry Willis now has a collet die that does the same thing; www.larrywillis.com.
I got 47 reloads on one Federal brass .308 Win. case with max loads before I ran out of powder at the range. A standard RCBS full length sizing die was used with its neck honed out to .002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Others have got a lot more reloads per cases with such dies. Nowadays, Redding and RCBS bushing dies do the same thing. Forster will hone out one of their dies for $12.
Sierra Bullets proved back in the '50's that any crimp on case mouths into bullets unbalanced them and made them shoot less accurate. That increased neck grip also caused a wider spread in bullet release force and muzzle velocity spread increased. They caved in to customer demands that their 22 caliber 77-gr. HPMK's have a cannelure put in them so 5.56 AR shooters could crimp case mouths into them; they were so afraid bullets wouldn't stay in place. Didn't matter that M1 and M14 ammo without crimped in bullets functioned perfectly. So Sierra put a knurled cannelure in them as an option. But they test them in non-crimped cases; better accuracy happens.
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When I started Benchrest I used a Niel Jones die like Bart mentioned. It worked well, but eventually the shoulders would get too far forward trying to neck size and only bump shoulders with a hand press with no body sizing going on.
Like many others, I switched to a FL bushing style sizer cut with the reamer used for the chamber. It could be set up to fit the case very, very closely to the chamber and worked just as well if not better. Set it up to move the shoulder about .001 and everything else fit tightly as well. Pick a bushing to give the neck tension desired, turn the necks to get the neck clearance desired, and your good to go. Rounds started off very straight in the chamber and could only get better as they are pushed forward into the shoulder of the chamber (Especially with help from necks that fit with about .0005 to .001 clearance all around.), assuming that does indeed center the rounds, and there is no reason not to think so, when standard FL sized ammo can shoot so well, especially since it can do so in standard chambers where the necks have a lot of clearance and the case body has plenty of wiggle room as well.
My experience there eventually lead me to use Redding FL bushing style dies when I wanted accurate ammo. I use them for .223 and .308. I need to get a Forster FL die with the neck reamed out in .222 Mag. Been meaning to do that for at least a decade now. It shoots great with a standard FL sizer though. It also shot great with a Lee collet style neck sizer, but brass would get hard to chamber.
Bart is right about case life and full length sizing to the minimum. Cases last a long time and you don't have to worry about head separations. I have cracked necks or loose primers pockets, but not separations, even after many firings.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058
Like many others, I switched to a FL bushing style sizer cut with the reamer used for the chamber. It could be set up to fit the case very, very closely to the chamber and worked just as well if not better. Set it up to move the shoulder about .001 and everything else fit tightly as well. Pick a bushing to give the neck tension desired, turn the necks to get the neck clearance desired, and your good to go. Rounds started off very straight in the chamber and could only get better as they are pushed forward into the shoulder of the chamber (Especially with help from necks that fit with about .0005 to .001 clearance all around.), assuming that does indeed center the rounds, and there is no reason not to think so, when standard FL sized ammo can shoot so well, especially since it can do so in standard chambers where the necks have a lot of clearance and the case body has plenty of wiggle room as well.
My experience there eventually lead me to use Redding FL bushing style dies when I wanted accurate ammo. I use them for .223 and .308. I need to get a Forster FL die with the neck reamed out in .222 Mag. Been meaning to do that for at least a decade now. It shoots great with a standard FL sizer though. It also shot great with a Lee collet style neck sizer, but brass would get hard to chamber.
Bart is right about case life and full length sizing to the minimum. Cases last a long time and you don't have to worry about head separations. I have cracked necks or loose primers pockets, but not separations, even after many firings.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=734058
Here's a link to benchrest stuff and how fired cases are best sized to get best accuracy:
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek041.html
Go to the section "Custom Dies Work Best."
Ferris Pindell worked at Sierra Bullets' tool and die shop when he and Dr. Palmisano designed the PPC cartridges. Along with Martin Hull, Pindell was instrumental in getting Sierra Bullets to bless the full length sizing their fired cases for best accuracy testing bullets. Even though their test barrels used SAAMI spec chambers (no tight necks), fired cases so sized still aligned bullets very well on the bore center. I've seen their .308 Win. 10-shot test targets shot with HPMK's in the ones; sub .200". Martin Hull told me that every once in a while, he would measure one that's under .100". Not too shabby for bullets being made at 90 per minute shot from unprepped cases in SAAMI spec chambers.
Today, Sierra's accuracy specs for all their rifle HPMK bullets is 1/2 MOA, at worst, in their 200 yard indoor range. That's about the same size as the biggest group has in short range benchrest aggregate records through 300 yards. They use Redding full bushing dies for cartridges that Redding makes them for, standard Redding full length dies for all the others. And they do no case prep whasoever. Nor does their ballistic techs work up a load when changing component lots or using a new barrel. All powder charges are metered, not weighed.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek041.html
Go to the section "Custom Dies Work Best."
Ferris Pindell worked at Sierra Bullets' tool and die shop when he and Dr. Palmisano designed the PPC cartridges. Along with Martin Hull, Pindell was instrumental in getting Sierra Bullets to bless the full length sizing their fired cases for best accuracy testing bullets. Even though their test barrels used SAAMI spec chambers (no tight necks), fired cases so sized still aligned bullets very well on the bore center. I've seen their .308 Win. 10-shot test targets shot with HPMK's in the ones; sub .200". Martin Hull told me that every once in a while, he would measure one that's under .100". Not too shabby for bullets being made at 90 per minute shot from unprepped cases in SAAMI spec chambers.
Today, Sierra's accuracy specs for all their rifle HPMK bullets is 1/2 MOA, at worst, in their 200 yard indoor range. That's about the same size as the biggest group has in short range benchrest aggregate records through 300 yards. They use Redding full bushing dies for cartridges that Redding makes them for, standard Redding full length dies for all the others. And they do no case prep whasoever. Nor does their ballistic techs work up a load when changing component lots or using a new barrel. All powder charges are metered, not weighed.
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I've never understood why a full length sizing die would be "chambered" with the same reamer used to chamber a barrel. How can size down the case body at all when its chamber body dimensions are larger than that of fired cases?
It might size the body down a bit if its shoulder was able to set the fired case shoulder back a thousandth or so, but the case body diameters will only get sized down a small fraction of that shoulder setback. Wouldn't the case body spring back to its original fired dimensions?
Of course, a bushing chamber could be made above the die chamber's shoulder; that's easy to do. As long as the chamber diameter is a slip fit to the bushings put in it. Otherwise, the case necks may not be sized concentric with the case shoulder and body.
It might size the body down a bit if its shoulder was able to set the fired case shoulder back a thousandth or so, but the case body diameters will only get sized down a small fraction of that shoulder setback. Wouldn't the case body spring back to its original fired dimensions?
Of course, a bushing chamber could be made above the die chamber's shoulder; that's easy to do. As long as the chamber diameter is a slip fit to the bushings put in it. Otherwise, the case necks may not be sized concentric with the case shoulder and body.
Roughing reamer vs finishing reamer is what I understood. And of course cut to take bushings. I could call Col. Billy Stevens who did my second FL Bushing style sizer for 6 PPC.
These days some will cut them specifically for your rifle using fired cases. How they go about it I don't know.
These days some will cut them specifically for your rifle using fired cases. How they go about it I don't know.
As I recall, Henricksen used to make custom die reamers sized about .002" less than average sample fired case body and shoulder dimensions. The reamer's neck would be ground to about .002" less than a loaded round's neck diameter. His opinion was that the die should reduce fired case dimensions about .001" smaller except for the neck which needed a bit more for minimal bullet grip.
From what I've done and that of others, the sized case can be several thousandths smaller than the chamber and still drive pins (their heads are smaller than tacks). As long as it's front end is well centered, the clearance around the body and neck doesn't matter much. The case back end will be against the chamber wall anyway.
Brand spankin' new unprepped .308 Win. cases with metered powder charges have shot sub 1/2 MOA, 20-shot test groups at 600 yards from SAAMI spec chambers. So have sub 1/5 MOA 15-shot test groups at 1000 were shot with brand new unprepped 30 caliber belted magnum cases. I'm not convinced that custom dies, chambers and totally prepped cases are all they're hyped up to be.
From what I've done and that of others, the sized case can be several thousandths smaller than the chamber and still drive pins (their heads are smaller than tacks). As long as it's front end is well centered, the clearance around the body and neck doesn't matter much. The case back end will be against the chamber wall anyway.
Brand spankin' new unprepped .308 Win. cases with metered powder charges have shot sub 1/2 MOA, 20-shot test groups at 600 yards from SAAMI spec chambers. So have sub 1/5 MOA 15-shot test groups at 1000 were shot with brand new unprepped 30 caliber belted magnum cases. I'm not convinced that custom dies, chambers and totally prepped cases are all they're hyped up to be.
Some people did that for years with 30 caliber belted magnum new, unpreped cases winning 1000 yard matches setting records along the way. Test groups that far away were the same size as full length sized totally prepped cases do in benchrest matches today. All shots inside 5 to 6 inches.
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No Benchrest shooter is going to shoot new cases all the time. They are going to prep cases for a rifle and shoot them over and over. The best way to keep them shooting very well for many firings is to keep them as straight and as round as possible with good dies, and have them fit the chamber very well.
Who cares if folks did it before, that isn't how Benchrest shooters do it. Are any high power shooters wasting money buying new cases for every shot in every match? I doubt it.
One minute you are talking about cases sized to fit the chamber tightly and then you change to new brass all the time. Make up your mind which it is, but either way, folks (Or at least 99% of folks) don't shoot nothing but new brass for every shot in matches, because it is cost prohibitive.
Will new cases shoot just as well? Let's assume they will, but that doesn't change the fact that people don't do it. So the subject is how to prep and size brass to shoot at a high level of accuracy.
Who cares if folks did it before, that isn't how Benchrest shooters do it. Are any high power shooters wasting money buying new cases for every shot in every match? I doubt it.
One minute you are talking about cases sized to fit the chamber tightly and then you change to new brass all the time. Make up your mind which it is, but either way, folks (Or at least 99% of folks) don't shoot nothing but new brass for every shot in matches, because it is cost prohibitive.
Will new cases shoot just as well? Let's assume they will, but that doesn't change the fact that people don't do it. So the subject is how to prep and size brass to shoot at a high level of accuracy.
WestKentucky
Member
This post hits home. I could have written the whole bit about failsafe on failsafe during loading all the while paying no mind to the number of times my cases have been fired. I shoot .270 win as my hotrod cartridge and I guarantee I have cases with 12 or even 15 loads on them. The only failures I have seen are neck splits and poor neck tension. In fact last time I loaded a batch I had a couple bullets drop into the case body. I then picked up the plastic mtm tray and dropped it on the table a few times to try and dislodge more bullets. I did get a couple more. I wish I could throw out a "bad batch" but my brass is all stored together mixed and mingled. I won't throw away 500 cases, but I will start segregating lots as I acquire new brass.
Hondo 60
Member
I use the plastic MTM ammo boxes.
They come with a log slip.
Then I made my own.
Just circle/black-out/punch-out the number of times loaded.
This works for any caliber (or atleast the ones I reload - all 12 of them)
They come with a log slip.
Then I made my own.
Just circle/black-out/punch-out the number of times loaded.
This works for any caliber (or atleast the ones I reload - all 12 of them)
trixter
Member
Great thread. To my brass: "I'll be listening to and watching you."
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Walkalong, I posted that info about new 30 caliber magnums' cases shooting bullets as accurate as fully prepped and sized ones to prove a point.
One doesn't need perfectly sized and prepped cases to shoot bullets accurately.
Some centerfire rifle matches require new cases, in fact, ammo issued on the firing line. The rules don't allow reloads nor handloads. Some arsenals loading Sierra 155 Palma bullets in them end up with ammo that shot as well as precision reloads. Some loaded in the USA decades ago shot 1/2 MOA or better across several rifles from around the world. 3 mil bullet runout, 3/10ths grain spread in powder charge, all in new Winchester cases loaded on two Dillon 1050's.
But only people who well understand the reasons why will appreciate the mention of such stuff. The others will make that famous statement from Scrooge in "A Christmas Story;" Bah humbug!!! Or others of the same ilk. I understand their position and it's OK by me to have it.
I've never suggested cases be a tight fit in a chamber. A small clearance is not a tight fit.
The most accurate benchrest ammo has kept all shots for 10-shot groups in a 200 yard match inside about 4/10ths MOA. Those are the IBS record holders. All the rest put all shots inside a larger area on target over a half MOA. That's with all the precision and minimal spread across all case variables. And with custom made bullets.
Sierra Bullets' spec for all their mass produced match bullets is all 10-shot test groups in a production run shoot under 5/10ths MOA in their 200 yard range. They do no case prep on their cases shooting them. Commercial Redding full length sizing dies (standard or bushing) resize their fired cases.
One doesn't need perfectly sized and prepped cases to shoot bullets accurately.
Some centerfire rifle matches require new cases, in fact, ammo issued on the firing line. The rules don't allow reloads nor handloads. Some arsenals loading Sierra 155 Palma bullets in them end up with ammo that shot as well as precision reloads. Some loaded in the USA decades ago shot 1/2 MOA or better across several rifles from around the world. 3 mil bullet runout, 3/10ths grain spread in powder charge, all in new Winchester cases loaded on two Dillon 1050's.
But only people who well understand the reasons why will appreciate the mention of such stuff. The others will make that famous statement from Scrooge in "A Christmas Story;" Bah humbug!!! Or others of the same ilk. I understand their position and it's OK by me to have it.
I've never suggested cases be a tight fit in a chamber. A small clearance is not a tight fit.
The most accurate benchrest ammo has kept all shots for 10-shot groups in a 200 yard match inside about 4/10ths MOA. Those are the IBS record holders. All the rest put all shots inside a larger area on target over a half MOA. That's with all the precision and minimal spread across all case variables. And with custom made bullets.
Sierra Bullets' spec for all their mass produced match bullets is all 10-shot test groups in a production run shoot under 5/10ths MOA in their 200 yard range. They do no case prep on their cases shooting them. Commercial Redding full length sizing dies (standard or bushing) resize their fired cases.
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With a bottleneck case against the chamber shoulder, a couple thousandths head clearance, several thousandths of mouth clearance, case body a few thousandths smaller than chamber, call that whatever you want. Nothing should prevent the case shoulder from centering in the chamber shoulder; that's the key to best case neck and bullet alignment to the bore.
Sierra Bullets' first ballistic tech Martin Hull, in company with Ferris Pindell, determined that a lot of clearance between the case and chamber was paramount to best accuracy. Hull oft times coined the phrase that the case has to fit the chamber like "a terd in a punchbowl." Or another one was like "a terd in a violin case."
Minimal case body to chamber clearance will increase case life, but do nothing regarding accuracy.
Sierra Bullets' first ballistic tech Martin Hull, in company with Ferris Pindell, determined that a lot of clearance between the case and chamber was paramount to best accuracy. Hull oft times coined the phrase that the case has to fit the chamber like "a terd in a punchbowl." Or another one was like "a terd in a violin case."
Minimal case body to chamber clearance will increase case life, but do nothing regarding accuracy.
You win. Tired of chasing you around the block to get a straight answer.
Benchresters are not going to stop making their cases a tight fit to the chambers though, and are going to keep shooting amazing groups and aggregates. Whether new cases can match it or not (And I am willing to accept that it can unless the fit is too sloppy) is irrelevant. They want great accuracy and good to very good case life, and that is what they get.
Too bad Lapua has never seen fit to make 6 PPC brass. Folks will just have to keep making them from Lapua .220 Russian cases fire forming them and turning the necks down to be a very close fit in tight necked chambers.
Benchresters are not going to stop making their cases a tight fit to the chambers though, and are going to keep shooting amazing groups and aggregates. Whether new cases can match it or not (And I am willing to accept that it can unless the fit is too sloppy) is irrelevant. They want great accuracy and good to very good case life, and that is what they get.
Too bad Lapua has never seen fit to make 6 PPC brass. Folks will just have to keep making them from Lapua .220 Russian cases fire forming them and turning the necks down to be a very close fit in tight necked chambers.
The best benchrest rifles set aggregate records through 300 yards with ammo that shoots somewhere under 1/2 MOA. That's the best they do. Their biggest groups are what defines the real accuracy level of their stuff. When all the variables add up, groups are the biggest. The smaller groups get, the more variables will end up canceling each other out.
I've oft times shot new cases winning matches against record holders. No problem with me using new cases all the time, but that gets a bit costly. So I resize them.
Few people know that new cases typically shoot more accurate than resized ones in rifles whose bolt face isn't squared up with the chamber axis. Their heads are quite square when new but flattened out of square on first firing. Resizing them doesn't square them up. Shots with them tend to string at right angles to the closed bolt's lug axis. None of the commercial rifles I've tested for accuracy did best with resized cases. New ones had a definite edge.
I've oft times shot new cases winning matches against record holders. No problem with me using new cases all the time, but that gets a bit costly. So I resize them.
Few people know that new cases typically shoot more accurate than resized ones in rifles whose bolt face isn't squared up with the chamber axis. Their heads are quite square when new but flattened out of square on first firing. Resizing them doesn't square them up. Shots with them tend to string at right angles to the closed bolt's lug axis. None of the commercial rifles I've tested for accuracy did best with resized cases. New ones had a definite edge.
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