Should you factor flyers in your load development?

[entropy]

Called flyers, no. That is shooter error. Non called flyers, yes. But first I start looking at scope mounts, etc.

 

[buck460XVR]

One needs to attempt to determine the cause of the flyers first and then determine if the inaccuracy of those flyers has a real impact on required accuracy. For most deer hunters, flyers of an inch @ 100 yards are less than shooter error when shooting off handed at a trophy buck looking back at you thru the scope. For folks that are shooting reactive targets a 25 yards with a handgun, flyers are probably not an major issue, nor are those from a snub nosed SD gun shot a 1 yard.

As for the cold barrel flyers, I was taught to sight in for cold barrel when sighting in a deer rifle, as the first shot is the most important, and here in Wisconsin, that first shot almost always comes from a cold barrel during gun deer season.

 

[LiveLife]

Wow, thanks everyone! I tell you, the knowledge base of THR members is simply amazing.

There are no fliers. All shots count.

Very true axiom. While posting the new thread, I had a sneaking suspicion that someone would post something like that. It's in line with another axiom I follow, "Holes on target speak volumes".

After thinking about many excuses as to why flyers occur, a movie scene came to mind:

Yoda said, "You do nothing that I say. You must unlearn what you have learned."
When Luke said "I will give it a try."
Yoda responded, "No. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."

Every shot fired goes where the shooting system intended it to go. Rifle + ammo + aimer + atmosphere = system.

I brought up the issue of flyers because I am trying to do a fair and objective comparison range test of plated bullets at 25/50 yards in another myth busting thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10348034#post10348034

Yes, absolutely agree that the holes on target is the product of firearm, ammunition and shooter. I already identified the wobble from adjustable stock as a factor and replaced it with fixed A2 stock on the Just Right carbine. I have been using a bipod and my support hand on the bottom of stock and currently working on hard adjustable front/rear mounts. I have some 3/8" steel plate stock and thinking about fabricating a custom testing platform that will work with carbines and pistol (kinda like ransom rest for pistol/carbines).

 

[Bart B.]

Check this machine rest out.



Several of these were built back in the 1960's by top ranked high power rifle competitors. They hold wood stocked rifles the same as this tube gun. When the rifle's fired, it recoils back and tilts up a bit because of the front two guide rods are at an angle. Its 3 point suspension is many times better than lead sleds or any other machine rest with tubes on rods as far as repeatability in aiming the rifle. Measured the angular repeatability of one and it was less than 1/100th MOA.

Good rifle and ammo systems have produced sub 2" groups with 10 to 40 shots each at 600 yards from such things.

 

[Walkalong]

The question was do we count them in load development. Do we count them in competition? Darn tootin we do. So, unless you just blow it mechanically and know it before the shot hits paper, you have to count them. If you think you physically caused a bad shot, it's up to you. It still counts, we just may not hold it against the load.

 

[popper]

Called flyers don't count if just a mental error. Like shotgun patterning, cone of fire takes more shots, repeated. OnTarget actually does this for you, probability of accuracy. That is what we really want. Try with mixed vs selected HS.

 

[forestswin]

Bds

I am curious, why are you using mixed brass for this load development and taking the time to tune everything to reduce variables, but not use new or at least sorted brass?

 

[LiveLife]

Check this machine rest out.

3 point suspension is many times better than lead sleds or any other machine rest with tubes on rods ... Measured the angular repeatability of one and it was less than 1/100th MOA ... produced sub 2" groups with 10 to 40 shots each at 600 yards

Very nice!

Since I will likely be shooting from inside Suburban during rain season (seats fold flat to create 4'x8' area), thinking about building a similar machine rest to hard mount to the Suburban.

I am curious, why are you using mixed brass for this load development and taking the time to tune everything to reduce variables, but not use new or at least sorted brass?

I already planned to order new brass but was curious about measuring groups vs flyers. I have done once fired sorted HS brass vs mixed brass but results were inconclusive but will repeat new vs once fired sorted HS vs mixed brass after the machine rest is built.

 

[BigBore44]

Walkalong nailed this one guys. But I'll add... If you're 100% positive the loads are the same, mount on the rest is the same, cheek weld the same, and you jerk the trigger, that's not the load's fault. It's yours. In fact, barring external factors like heat, wind, barrel obstructions, loose scope mount etc. the rifle should repeat your shots with great consistency. The only error will be had by you. Does it count? On paper and scores, yes. In load development, no. Because there is no reason other than human error to explain the "flyer".