Should you factor flyers in your load development?

[LiveLife]

When using mixed brass for pistol/carbine load development, should you factor flyers?

I am sure many of you experienced flyers where 4 out of 5 shots grouped together and one shot decides to go on vacation and fly away.

I think if you are doing load development with mixed range brass, "tolerance stacking" of variance from powder charge, OAL/bullet seating depth variance from shell plate tilt/deflection and different resized case lengths, variance from case wall thickness, etc. all affect neck tension and chamber pressures to produce occasional flyers.

So when I conduct range test for load development, I will often rule out flyers and focus on the main group for determining accuracy of loads.

Is there any reason why I should factor flyers in my load development?

Based on jmorris' comments, I have switched from using 5 shots to 10 shots for determining accuracy of my loads. Of course, 10 shot groups sometimes produce more flyers to the point where 25/50 yard testing with carbine loads makes me wonder if they are flyers or clustering of shots.

Yes, I have considered other factors such as wobble from adjustable stock and shooter input and replaced with fixed stock (which definitely improved flyers) and making adjustable hard rear mount next.

 

[LiveLife]

I will be reshooting these loads once DIY adjustable hard rear mount is finished and will be using the bipod for the front (I am considering making a hard front mount).

Shot groups with adjustable stock

Shot groups with A2 fixed stock

So would you consider 2 holes on top flyers or count towards the group?

 

[springer99]

I also use 10shot groups, mostly at 50yds, as the basis for determining load performance, but no, for most instances you can't throw out those 1 or 2 shot flyers. Doing so just gives you a false impression of what real, consistent performance is. It's good to shoot 1 or 2 fouling shots though, before shooting for groups, anytime you change loads.

A good example of this is when testing 22LR ammo. I know for a fact that Match quality 22LR just doesn't throw flyers from the group the way less expensive or bulk ammo does.

There is only 1 circumstance where I will generally throw out 1(and only 1) flyer from a 10shot group. That is where I'm using a semi-auto in a Ransom rest. For some reason, it's not unusual to have the first shot from a semi-auto go wide of the rest of the group. Common theory is that a round loaded manually is seated differently than those loaded by gun recoil action, and that's what causes it to occur.

 

[Bart B.]

There are no fliers. All shots count.

Every shot fired goes where the shooting system intended it to go. Rifle + ammo + aimer + atmosphere = system.

How do you distinguish a shot that shoots exactly at point of aim when all is perfect from a bad round that will go 1 MOA to the right due to its imperfections but due to human variables holding the rifle makes it go 1 MOA left and strikes point of aim atop where the perfect one hit?

 

[243winxb]

There are no fliers

There are no fliers. All shots count.

+1 When 1 combination of a 5 shot group looks good, i load 20 more rounds the same. Then shoot 4 groups of five rounds each for an average and compare. I also include the 1st fouling shot , from a clean barrel ,in the first group.

 

[Blue68f100]

All shots count, no fliers.

Several years ago I was getting an occasional fliers out of my ATD. Then one night I cleared the gun to break it down and discovered that the bullet was getting damaged by the feed ramp. This particular bullet had a blunter nose than the ones I prefer. Once I saw that I did some miner polishing and all's good now. I have also seen this on some AR's where the feed ramp is so sharp it cuts the bullet and brass. These I break down and de-horn. Something to look for.

I know some throw the 1st shot off due to it being off from the reset of the magazine. This normally means the 1st round is not being feed the same as the others. Some times all it takes is slingshot the 1st round vs dropping the slide stop.

 

[Sunray]

"...There are no fliers. All shots count..." Yeah. Most of 'em are caused by the trigger bench interface, not the load or the rifle. Doesn't take much of a wee tiny wiggle to throw a shot off. However, not using match grade bullets can do it too. In any case, 25 yards is too close. Even with a 9mm carbine. Said carbine not being a target rifle and bipods being inherently unstable with light big kid's toys.

 

[jmr40]

It depends on what you want to determine. If you are trying to determine how accurate YOU, the RIFLE, and LOAD is then flyers should count.

If you know for a fact that the flyer was human error then you know for a fact that the individual group has nothing to do with the load or rifle.

 

[25-20 WCF]

Clearly not all flyers are shooter-caused. I spent 30+ years shooting highly-accurate rifles and handguns and flyers are a fact of life. They may or may not be statistically significant, only LOTS of shooting the same load at paper can determine that. One five- or ten-shot group is not definitive but can be useful in helping to eliminate poor loads.

Those who think that flyers don't count are fooling themselves. But hey, if they want to classify their loads by the very best group they ever shot with it (as so many do) then tossing out flyers is no different.


.

 

[243winxb]

mixed range brass affect neck tension and chamber pressures

In the 45acp, 45 to over 100 pounds to push the bullet into the case using mixed brass. Not what you want for accuracy.

 

[Bart B.]

The only match ammo I know of that lots of folks had uncalled fliers with was the Lake City Army Ammo Plant's M118 7.62 NATO match ammo. But there was a cause and wasn't the rifle, human nor atmosphere.

Seems Lake City had 3 or 4 different machines making the 172-gr. FMJBT bullets for them. Their outputs were all put in the same feed hopper in the ammo assembly line at once.

'Twas a well known fact to one of the ballistic engineers at Aberdeen Proving Ground that one of those machines typically made the best bullets. When that machines bulleets were tested in Mann rested barreled actions testing for accuracy, they would group 1 MOA or better than when all of the bullet making machines were mixed and loaded on the same production line. With mixed lots of bullets in the most accurate National Match ammo, they shot almost 2 MOA (.333 MOA mean radius) but regular lots of M118 ammo would shoot uup to 3 MOA (.583 MOA or 3.5 inch mean radius; the accuracy spec) in their 600 yard test range. When military units got one of those lots, they would replace the bullets with Sierra 168's or 180's and then have ammo that would shoot well under MOA at 600 yards.

Lapua has been known to put 30 caliber match bullets from several machines into the same retail lot of bullets. No wonder there were a few "fliers" in a box of 100.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes, unless you call a gun handling mistake as it happens and not after the shot hits paper.

Other than that, everything counts.

 

[Hondo 60]

Flyers happen!

This target was shot with an 1873 Uberti Cattleman NM Brass (5 1/2" barrel).
45 Colt rounds were loaded with 11 gr of Accurate #5 under a 200 gr LRNFP
I do my absolute best to keep my brass together to count the number of times it's been reloaded.
I do NOT mix headstamps. So I can't blame any of the "Usual reasons"

As you can see I had a flyer.
I knew it the moment the primer fired.
I might have even said a bad word.

 

[Grumulkin]

I think the term flyer should be extirpated from the reloader's vocabulary. It implies active intelligence on the part of the bullet in that it just decides on its own to go off by itself for reasons known only to it. The flyer delusion also gives rise to the "gun will shoot fantastically if I do my part statement" which in many cases probably means flyers (I hate that word) weren't counted in the accuracy assesment.

If a bullet impacts far from the main grouping, there is a reason. Reasons could include primer, gun, shooter, incorrect powder charge, scope issues, etc.

 

[bikemutt]

Sometimes all my flyers end up in the same hole; now that's a lucky group

 

[hammer58]

bds, where can I find a software program like that?

 

[murf]

"flyer" is an excuse for not prepping your brass! a bit harsh, but true. the industry hasn't applied "accuracy" to the handgun segment yet and handgun brass leaves a lot to be desired. buy starline brass and trim all to the same length. use a good bullet and good reloading techniques and your fliers will disappear.

murf

 

[LiveLife]

bds, where can I find a software program like that?

I am using the free version of OnTarget - http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download1.html

 

[kitsapshooter]

I am sure many of you experienced flyers where 4 out of 5 shots grouped together and one shot decides to go on vacation and fly away.

Never had a flyer. ever misplaced shot was due to my failure,

 

[Grumulkin]

Sometimes all my flyers end up in the same hole; now that's a lucky group

How true. The best 3 shot group I ever shot and they were all flyers. It was shot with a barrel I could not count on for better than 2 to 2.5 inch groups despite extensive trials of different loads. Truly a lucky group.

 

[forestswin]

It depends on your objective

It seems you're testing stock and bullet
But you have purposely included the brass variable
The fliers can easily be attributed to "mixed brass"
I'd throw out the fliers from your results and record "group size based on 8 out 10 rounds"

If you want to keep the "mixed brass" moniker in your load development logs
Than keep the fliers in your data......but your expectations for group size should be lowered

 

[rskent]

Bart B

There are no fliers. All shots count.*

Absolutely, A flier is part of your group. If you are shooting for points ten's count for ten,
and eights count for eight. Hits are hits and misses are misses.

 

[the Black Spot]

You can have flyers in a revolver. From cylinder variances.
I have two revolvers that throw flyers on a particular cylinder.

 

[243winxb]

9mm

Bds, the groups above are not bad at all. I know its a carbine, but overall, your reloads are better, then the best of many pistol groups shot with factory ammo. http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/slideshow/FirearmsReloading102/9MM%20Accuracy Mostly the pistol is being tested, not the ammo.

 

[Nature Boy]

If you didn't count the flyers then you wouldn't have anything to work on and what fun would that be?