"Where Democrats proudly own guns"

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K-Romulus

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Hoo, boy! Time for another one of "those" threads . . .:evil:

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/14856809.htm

Posted on Tue, Jun. 20, 2006

Red, Blue - and Purple
A closer look at America's political and cultural divide.
Where Democrats proudly own guns
In Montana, less of a partisan issue.
By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

MISSOULA, Mont. - Gov. Brian Schweitzer won't say exactly how many guns he owns, other than it's "more than I need, but less than I want."

An unabashed shooter, hunter and gun-fancier in a state deeply in touch with its Old West heritage, Schweitzer is a member of the National Rifle Association and was happy to receive the NRA's endorsement for governor in 2004.

He is also a Democrat.

Like many Democrats, especially those beyond the nation's big cities and urban coasts, Schweitzer doesn't see gun ownership as a partisan issue.

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"Republicans try to make the case that 'Democrats will take your guns away.' I say, 'Yeah, Democrats like Giuliani, Pataki and Schwarzenegger,' " Schweitzer said, naming prominent Republicans from New York and California.

While leaders in cities such as Philadelphia, faced with a rising number of gun-related slayings and injuries, call for tougher gun laws, their counterparts in more rural states insist that criminals, not guns, are the problem.

As Democrats try to win control of Congress this year and the White House in 2008, the divide over guns may make their task that much tougher. For common ground in the gun debate is often found not in political affiliation, but in region, gender, or proximity to a large city.

A Pew Research Center survey of 1,500 adults in 2004 asked Americans which they thought was more important - "to protect the right of Americans to own guns, or to control gun ownership?"

In the Northeast, 70 percent of the respondents said it was more important to control gun ownership, while 26 percent said it was more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns. In all other regions of the country, majorities also said controlling guns was paramount, but by much smaller margins (the Midwest, 54 percent; the South, 53 percent, and the West, 59 percent).

And a Gallup Poll survey of 1,012 people in October found gun ownership lowest in the East, where 31 percent of respondents said they or someone in their household owned a gun. In the South and the Midwest, the figure was 47 percent; in the West, it was 38 percent.

Republicans are more likely to have a gun in the house: The Gallup survey found that 57 percent of Republicans said they or someone in their household owned a gun, compared with 33 percent of Democrats and 37 percent of independents.

Only 13 percent of women said they owned guns, while 47 percent of men did.

In a state such as Montana, the gun issue helps color the state red in presidential elections even as voters elect Democrats to state and local offices. In 2004, Montanans voted for President Bush by a ratio of 59 percent to 39 percent, while putting Democrats in control of the governor's mansion and both houses of the Legislature. (In the last 50 years, the only Democratic presidential candidates to carry the state were Bill Clinton in 1992 and Lyndon Johnson in 1964.)

The state's senior U.S. senator, Max Baucus, is a Democrat, and the Republican junior senator, Conrad Burns, is considered vulnerable in his reelection bid this year, partly because of ties to disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff. This month, State Senate President Jon Tester won the Democratic nomination to oppose Burns in November.

Montana voters regularly exhibit an independent streak laced with a suspicion of government intrusion. In 2004, they voted to approve a "right to hunt" constitutional amendment (with 81 percent support) at the same time that they approved the use of marijuana for medical purposes (62 percent) and a ban on cyanide in mining (58 percent).

A Democratic presidential candidate with hopes of carrying Montana would have to tap into that independence and speak frankly to the gun issue, Schweitzer said.

"I'd tell him to tell people he respects their Second Amendment rights and maybe talk a little about his own experiences with guns," Schweitzer said. "And it might not be a bad idea to go out to a gravel pit and set up some beer cans and shoot at 'em."

Craig Wilson, a political science professor at Montana State University-Billings who conducts regular polling on political issues, said that although state residents were relatively pro-gun, the image of Montanans as "redneck rebels with a gun in the back of every pickup is not a true picture."

He said the NRA had "the ability to mobilize their owners... . Gun owners win on intensity.

"That's why politicians in Montana are extremely skittish about crossing swords with the NRA, and that's why it's a coveted endorsement," he said.

Gary Marbut, president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, a political action group for gun owners, agreed that gun owners here were "life-and-death serious" about preventing gun restrictions, and "when you're running a campaign, the intensity of your followers is more important than the number of your followers."

Marbut has run unsuccessfully for the Legislature both as a Republican and a Democrat.

"I don't care what party a person is as long as they're agreeable to our principles," Marbut said. "But we do tend to find more friends among Republicans and the Constitution Party and Libertarians than we do among Democrats and the Green Party."

Montana got an F from the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, the political action group established by Sarah Brady after her husband, Jim, was wounded in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan. The Brady Center cited Montana's failure to regulate gun ownership by juveniles, conduct background checks, require child-safety locks, or set waiting periods for gun purchases, among other things.

In the vastness of Montana, 935,000 people are scattered over 147,000 square miles, which means there are only about six people per square mile. Only Alaska and Wyoming are more sparsely settled. (By comparison, New Jersey has 1,134 people per square mile, and Philadelphia has 11,233.)

That can mean fewer gun conflicts than in crowded coastal cities, Schweitzer said.

"People in large urban places have concerns we don't have," the governor said. "In places like Philadelphia, New York, Boston, you have gun issues that are completely alien to us."

State legislator Kevin T. Furey, 23, a Democrat who served with the Army in Iraq, owns a .270 bolt-action hunting rifle and says hunting and guns are ingrained in the state's DNA. So, he said, is opposition to government control.

"A large percentage of people are pro-gun, but a large percentage are also pro-choice," Furey said. "There's an almost libertarian sensibility... that government should stay out of your life.

"When someone sees 'Democrat,' they think 'control.' But when you explain to people that you don't agree with the national Democratic Party on every issue, they're willing to listen."

Furey continued: "Democrats are in power now, and we're not raising taxes, we're not taking away guns. I think that's a wake-up call for people. All those scary things they were told were going to happen, didn't."
 
This is similar to Alaska. It was a liberal Democrat who pushed for Vermont carry here. The best case scenario is not one where pro-gun Republicans win, but rather returning to a world where the RKBA is a NON-PARTISAN issue.

Sadly, the national Democratic party remains under the control of antis. But then again so are a lot of Republican politicos.
 
Well, I'd encourage more Democrats to follow their lead on the issue, and arrive at some genuine support of the 2nd Amendment.

At the end of the day, if the Dems stopped being the political champion of the forces of organized gun bigotry, such forces would find themselves politically homeless, relatively powerless, and relegated to the fringe where they belong.

Dems have a long track record to overcome, and their sincerity will be suspect for quite some time.


All in all, I'd say that this is more an example of local politicians fitting in with their locale, than the sign of a trend.

Flipside example: Bloomberg of NYC. (Laying aside the fact that the GOP is a flag of convenience for Bloomberg, shall we write an article about "Where Republicans Proudly Fear Guns?")
 
Bloomberg isn't a republican, he's an alien from an alternate dimension where black is white and right is wrong. In his mind he believes he has a chance at winning the presidency, that's how out of touch with reality he is.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-detail.php?id=15612

That top 10 list of gun grabbers in the US senate looks like a who's who of the demorat party leadership. If the Ds want to convince normal gun owners they aren't out to screw them, then why are these jokers still calling the shots?
 
Let's not forget the great Republican "Hero" Rudy, who's personally overseen the imposition of the most draconian anti-gun laws and police methods in the US. Plainclothes cops, authorized to stop and even kill anyone they suspect has a firearm. Compared with Rudy, Hillary is barely a threat. Don't get too mired in partisan politics. Enemies are all around us, and friends can be found in unexpected places.
 
While I agree that there are Democrats who are 2A friendly, they are vastly outnumbered by their colleagues and constituents. It simply is not safe to vote for a Democrat JUST because they support the 2A. Now, in a governor's race, or in a state legislature, that may be ok. But on a national level, it is plain crazy to vote for a Dem because you think they'll protect the 2A. Even IF, and its a big if, they have the courage to stand up against their party (which most don't, on both sides), they are so outnumbered as to not matter anyway. I'm much more comfortable with a few Republicans supporting gun control than I am with a few Democrats supporting the 2A.
 
Montana is a hard state to pin politicaly, it is both conservative on economic issues, yet very progressive on social issues. There Democrats are much more old fashion liberal, than east coast Dems. I bet it has to do with a large percentage of people who live there once lived in California, or the Midwest. An ex girlfriend who moved from Montana to Mass, stated, most younger Montanans can't wait to leave the state for place like California, or the East coast when they are old enough. There is not enough work, and it is to isolated for them. In the near future Montana and other Western states will become Democrat on the Federal level. One can already see the change from Red to Blue, in every election. Hopefully, they won't turn into Californias. Though I suspect they will in the long run, do to the influx of East coaster and Californians. Maybe if enough old fashion Dems from the western states, can get together and force the Liberal East Coast Dems out of the National Democratic Party.
 
*waves*
Here's a Dem who's RKBA friendly. I likes my guns, and I likes my environment. Yes to assault weapons, no to drilling in Alaska.


The Democratic Party is, at present, like a big herd of Cats. Impossible to move in a direction and hard to tell who is truly in charge.
Cosmoline is right about how the RKBA should be a non partisan issue. And that even some Reps have sold out the RKBA.
 
And I remember another Democrat "unabashed shooter, hunter and gun-fancier... in touch with [his] Old West heritage" :D :

John%20Kerry%20Hunting%204.jpg


kerry_shotgunning.jpg

The problem I have with getting behind even legitamate pro-gun libs is that their party platform is still anti-gun. At best we can expect pro-gun Democrats to try to ward off their party's anti-gun agenda. On the other hand, the Rublican platform is pro-gun. RINOs are limited as to how far they can stray from party platform beliefs before the rank and file party memebers toss them out of office. The American people have recent voiced where they stand on the 2nd Amendment. Any attempt by a RINO to rebel against the 2nd Amenment would be political suicide.
 
the image of Montanans as "redneck rebels with a gun in the back of every pickup is not a true picture."
Once you get outside of Billings and other bigger cities, that pretty much still is a true picture. Most of my neighbors are even more radical and anti-government than I am - if you can imagine that ;)

I do know of one widow lady that moved here in the last couple years that doesn't have a gun, though she is thinking about it. Other than that I am not aware of any households in my rural spread-out neighborhood that are unarmed. And I know some grey haired ladies that pack a pistol when hiking.

OTOH, it was the Democrat controlled state legislature that failed to pass self-defense reform and "Vermont carry" last session (2005). :( So I still take all their "I'm a Democrat and I hunt/own guns" with a grain of salt.:rolleyes:
 
Not a big surprise.

The south was solidly Democratic for decades, and rabidly pro-RKBA. Now the south is solidly Republican, and still pro-RKBA. The south never changed any of its core values as far as I can tell. It's just that the Democratic party moved away from those values.

The south eventually realized that the Republicans better represented their interests, and if local Democrats in Montana start reflecting the views of the national Democratic party, the same thing will happen there.
 
This is similar to Alaska. It was a liberal Democrat who pushed for Vermont carry here. The best case scenario is not one where pro-gun Republicans win, but rather returning to a world where the RKBA is a NON-PARTISAN issue.

Sadly, the national Democratic party remains under the control of antis. But then again so are a lot of Republican politicos.

Once again, the Infernal snowball fight has been postponed to allow for porcine aerial maneuvers. Cosmoline and I are in complete agreement :D
 
The problem I have with getting behind even legitamate pro-gun libs is that their party platform is still anti-gun.

True, but the problem I have with getting behind conservatives is that while their party is pro-gun, their actions are just lip service. :D
 
Native Montanan living in Colorado

You have to remember, that in Montana, Democrats have to be very conservative to win. Plus, they happened to have one of the most corrupt republican governors the last time around. True montanans are a conservative bunch, but we tend to be classicly liberal when it comes to social issues and somewhat to the environment. Montanan's tend towards environmentalism as a controlled environment. Do no harm, but harvest the trees, etc.

With the influx of the vapid left from California however, a new threat to Montana has developed. The Looney left, like Farmer Ted Turner moved in and proceeded to hork off the real ranchers and farmers in MT. More and more of these loons move to Montana and have really destroyed towns like Bozeman and Missoula. Where once was a friendly old diner, now there is a Bistro, selling Alfalfa Sprouts in Buttsauce. Where once was a Good ole Guns and Fishing shop, now sits an Orvis shop selling $30 flies and fishing waders made from rare baby seals.

Out in the hinterlands of MT, you can still find the charm of MT. Where your neighbor knows who you are and doors are never locked.

But Bozeman, it has changed..... and none for the good.
 
In the Northeast, 70 percent of the respondents said it was more important to control gun ownership, while 26 percent said it was more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns. In all other regions of the country, majorities also said controlling guns was paramount, but by much smaller margins (the Midwest, 54 percent; the South, 53 percent, and the West, 59 percent).

Yeah. I'd like to know who the respondants were exactly. And then I'd like someone to explain why rural areas, with nearly universal gun ownership, have far less crime than cities that ban guns.
 
Any attempt by a RINO to rebel against the 2nd Amenment would be political suicide.

Sadly untrue. GW supported the AWB all along, and Rudy is thinking about a run in '08. He's beloved by millions of Republicans, esp. back east. He's "America's Mayor"--didn't you know that? There are many Republicans at every level who are either fair weather friends of the RKBA or out-and-out enemies of it.

Once again, the Infernal snowball fight has been postponed to allow for porcine aerial maneuvers. Cosmoline and I are in complete agreement

There's hope yet!
 
Quote ('Card):
The south never changed any of its core values as far as I can tell. It's just that the Democratic party moved away from those values. /Qoute

Quote (davec):
Damn that civil rights movement /Quote

Reply-- Wow...Dirty pool, below the belt, totally un-High Road.

Quote (Cosmoline):
Sadly untrue. GW supported the AWB all along, and Rudy is thinking about a run in '08. He's beloved by millions of Republicans, esp. back east. He's "America's Mayor"--didn't you know that? /Quote

Reply--Right back at you--sadly very untrue. Rudy was in the right place at the right time. His 15 minutes have come and gone. GWB...a lot of us (yours truly included) voted for him twice, and I hate to trot out the "lesser of two evils" card here...but we are not blind to his shortcomings.

Many of us (I hope) have written our Governors, Representatives, Senators and President to express either our approval or lack thereof. The fact that nearly every one elicts a response (yes I know they are canned) leads me to believe that these efforts are not wasted...unless I am the only one doing it.

So, may I ask you to spend 15 minutes less today on the 'net, and compose a letter to your elected officials? An email works too...and there is no law against doing both.

I do both regularly, and the responses I've gotten from my (TX) Representative and both Senators are encouraging. Governor and President, somewhat less so ..:mad:

PS: Guess I really need to figure out how to "quote" from another member's post...
 
Montana, along with Eastern Washington, and chunks of Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming and Colorado, had the phenomena of what I would call "pink libertarianism" in the 50s-90s. Unions (mining and logging) combined with small businesses to create an atmosphere of concern for the small man combined with "do your own thing" social ideas + a "screw the government" attitude bourne of the cowboy spirit.

With the addition of the Californians to Western cities, and Easterners to the pretty much always leftist Denver, and Leftist since the late 60s early 70s Boulder/Golden area, there is no way of telling if this can continue. People lived in rural and small town Western states for the good Union wages, and minimal regulation on small business. With the destruction of unions, and the increasing of tax and regulation caused by the Cali/Northeast interlopers, what were really cool places to live with very reasonable laws could go the way of states' rights.
 
Here's how you quote from my posts, just FYI. Hit the little quote button and insert the text

Sadly untrue. GW supported the AWB all along, and Rudy is thinking about a run in '08. He's beloved by millions of Republicans, esp. back east. He's "America's Mayor"--didn't you know that? There are many Republicans at every level who are either fair weather friends of the RKBA or out-and-out enemies of it.

Then say:

"Cosmoline, you are right again."

That's the best way to do it, I find.
 
By no means should either major party be consdiered to have a monopoly on the RKBA, though it seems that the R's tend to be freindlier in office than the D's. That said, you should vote and support (or lack thereof) by candidate, and not party line.

Zell Miller of Georgia has been a lifelong gun owner and hunter, and he currently is on the NRA board of directors.
 
True, but the problem I have with getting behind conservatives is that while their party is pro-gun, their actions are just lip service.

Sorry here in Florida Conservatives' support for gun rights is more than just lip service. Our Republican Governor has recently passed legislation to:

1. Extended the castle doctrine to public places (stand your ground law)
2. Protect CCW during state's of emergency.
3. Allow CCW in state and fed parks
4. Keep information associated with concealed weapons permit holders private.
5. Protect the amount of land designated for hunting from being used for other things.


Sadly untrue. GW supported the AWB all along, and Rudy is thinking about a run in '08.

GW had said prior to '08 he would sigh to renew the AWB "IF" it came to his desk. He was repeatedly called out by libs to urge congress to bring renewal of the AWB to floor to be voted on. But he did absolutely nothing saying that his position is known.
 
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