where do I start?

[Nushif]

A long time ago I picked up a kit pistol to display. It is marked "Derringer Philadelphia" and is a .45 caliber blackpowder pistol.
Recently I talked to someone about it and they asked why I didn't shoot it.

And that is a good question! It feels solid, nothing shaking or doing anything unseemly. The hammer drops with a decent amounto of force and the bore is nicely rifled.

So. If I wanted to give this a shot, what would I need?
Blackpowder, .45 Balls, caps, wads ... And a dipper, right?

Enlighten me please. The theory is simple ... Add powder (but how much?) add wad, add ball, stuff down, ad cap, point, shoot, right?

 

[Sam1911]

I'd think you'd need:

1) Caps to fit the nipples. (Probably No. 10 or No. 11s)
2) Powder. That will be "FFFg" black powder, or the Pistol style Pyrodex, or equivalent.
3) Patch material (or pre-cut patches) and lube.
4) Round balls. Maybe these. Not too big (NOT full bore diamter) or you'll never get it started with the patch in place. It's the patch that really grabs the rifling.
5) Powder measure.
6) Powder flask.
7) A ball starter.
8) A loading stand will make it a LOT easier to charge the gun.

That should get you started well.

Good luck!

 

[mykeal]

Some clarification:

1) Cap sizes. There are only No. 10's or No. 11's, although don't be mislead into thinking brand doesn't matter; CCI No. 10's are not the same size as Remington No. 10's. The size number really doesn't mean anything. Fortunately, it doesn't matter with the Philly Derringer; either 'size' in any brand will work, although CCI No. 10's may take two strikes to ignite.

3. Patch material: cotton ONLY, preferably a dense weave like denim or pillow ticking. The commercial patches sold by caliber will do nicely.

4. Round balls: .440 or .445 in diameter.

6. Powder flask: optional, as you can load the powder measure directly from the can. Do not attempt to load the gun directly from the can; use the powder measure, and keep the can covered/capped if it's anywhere near the gun.

 

[arcticap]

This Box O' Truth photo article shows how to load and fire it:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu66.htm

I'm guessing a .440 round ball and a pre-lubed .010 patch with an #11 cap will work.
From 30 to 40 volumetric grains of powder can be loaded as in the test, although less can also be loaded.
An empty cartridge case can be used to measure the volume of powder.

Cartridge Grains
.22 LR = 5
.320 ACP = 7
.380 ACP = 10
.30 cal Carbine = 20
.38 Special = 23
.357 Mag = 27
.45 Auto = 26
.44 Colt = 35
.45 Colt = 41
.38-40 = 40
.30-30 = 42
.30-06 = 70
.45-70 = 83

9mm – 13.3
40 S&W – 19.3


Using a ball starter or a wooden dowel to ram, make sure that the patched round ball is seated right on top of the powder.
Be sure to clean all of the powder residue off the interior and exterior of the gun afterward.
Remove the nipple with a nipple wrench afterward if you have one and clean the threads.
A sewing needle, safety pin or thin piece of wire can be used as a nipple pick to insure that the nipple hole is open.
Wear ear and eye protection.
Good luck and have fun!

 

[Nushif]

I was talking to the wife about the initial investment here ...

Being a shooyer, too ... She was not so much opposed to it as much as she was wondering how this was all going to happen.

She proposed I find someone in OR who already shoots blackpowder, get some tutelage and then see if I like it. I kinda like the idea.
So, this is a call to anyone living in OR who shoots blackpowder ... Can you show me the ropes in person? Because while this sounds hella fun ... It would be a mildly steep investment at first and may you know like ... Burn what little hair I have left. 8)

 

[mykeal]

I suggest you contact the closest field representative of the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association. They'll be glad to let you know of local events or people who are involved in black powder shooting.

Go to this site: http://www.nmlra.org/, click on the Field Reps link on the left side of the page and then select Oregon from the drop down list.

 

[Nushif]

Done!

 

[arcticap]

This short video shows someone loading and firing a Derringer .45 clone twice. The 2nd time it shows how to load the powder.
It's very simple and straight forward.
Just watch it a few times and become familiar with the loading and firing procedure.
Only shoot it at the short range of about 10 - 20 feet in order to hit the target with such a short barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCNNBp80HUM

 

[Nushif]

Alright ... not hard at all. All he seems to use is the powder, wad, ball and starting rod thingie. And something to scoop it.

This sounds feasible.

 

[arcticap]

Here's another video showing twice how to load the Philadelphia Derringer with 20 grains of powder, and a lubed patch with a round ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqYFtxFYai0


The patch is lubed with TC Bore Butter which the patches can be bought pre-lubed or dry, and sized according to the caliber of the gun. In this case it would be sized for a .40 - .49 caliber gun in either .010 or .015 thickness. The .010 patch will load just a little easier with a .440 diameter ball.
The powder charge is variable, anywhere between 20 - 40 grains maximum.
Cap the gun while it's on 1/2 cock if possible.
If the gun misfires and doesn't fire off, then wait up about 30 seconds with the muzzle pointing down range, recap and fire again.
If it still doesn't go off, then clear the nipple using the nipple pick or sewing needle as described above, cap and fire again.
If it still won't go off, remove the nipple and trickle a few grains of powder under the nipple, screw the nipple back on, then cap and fire again.
It should always go off after doing that.
That's about it.
Just keep reloading safely and enjoy shooting it.
Then go home and clean it thoroughly using black powder solvent, soap and water, or both.
Then dry it out thoroughly and lube it with Bore Butter, mineral oil, etc... inside and out.
Then swab any oil out of the bore just before starting the next shooting session.
Bore Butter is usually okay not to swab out before shooting, just clear the nipple hole first either with the nipple pick or by dry firing a percussion cap.

 

[mykeal]

40 grains in a Philly Derringer? Really? Have you ever done that?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OUCH!

LD

 

[arcticap]

40 grains in a Philly Derringer? Really? Have you ever done that?

That's the amount of powder that the Derringer was loaded with for the last comparison shot fired through the 1 gallon jugs of water on page 5 of the Box O' Truth report. The Kentucky pistol was also loaded with 40 grains of powder. That's why the Derringer's performance was so similar to the .38 Special's, penetrating 4 gallon jugs of water but not the 5th as the .38 Special did.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu66_5.htm

Well, before we quit, let's try a maximum load of 40 grains of FFFg in the Derringer.

It penetrated 4 jugs, much to our surprise.

Here it is in the last jug

Conclusions:
1. With a standard load, the Derringer was a weak sister of a pistol. It would not penetrate enough to reach vital organs.

2. With a hot load, it penetrated as well as a longer barreled pistol and reached the required 12 inches of penetration.

3. A modern .38 Special, even with a very poor load of a RNL bullet, out performed the black powder pistol.

4. The .44 caliber lead balls did not expand at all and just punched a .44 caliber hole right through the jugs.

5. Cleaning up the nasty black powder fouling ain't much fun.

But one thing for sure... It's fun to shoot stuff.

 

[mykeal]

Wow. That can't have been any fun.

 

[DoubleDeuce 1]

I checked an old CVA Philadelphia Derringer Kit instruction book from 1977. They do not list any load/ powder charges.

The CVA .45 cal barrels usually do well with a .440 cal ball and lubed pillow ticking or similar for patching. I load my CVA Derringer with 10-20 grains of FFFG.

To quote CVA's booklet, "While they were of little value at any great distance, these pocket dreadnoughts were devastating at close range." That about says it all.

Remember, if you load heavy you risk cracking the stock, or worse. The barrel is too short to allow all the powder to burn before the ball leaves the barrel. You will be wasting powder. Keep your targets reasonably close, maybe 10-20 yards tops, and you should do fine.