Where on the load range do you start with AR loads?

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Rushthezeppelin

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So I just got back from the range working with my first load workup for my AR. Unfortunately not a single one of my loads would cycle my action.

I was using IMR4895 over 55gr dogtown HPs. Did three sets of 9 loads 22.5, 23.0 and 23.5 all seated to 2.255. Since I don't have a chrono I didn't want to go much higher than about midway up the load range that my Lee book recommended which was between 22.0 and 25.2. The 23.5s seemed to almost want to cycle enough as I had one that cycled enough to grab the ejector groove of one round causing it to jam up into my locking lug area.

Guess I'm going to do some 24.0 and 24.5. Don't want to go any higher than that since I don't have a chrono to test for pressure signs and the book stated that max load was compressed.

First of all I'm wondering if part of the reason for the cycling issues was that I was seating at about max length for the magazine. Book said min OAL was 2.200. Could that extra room have caused low enough pressure to cause my cycling issues or is it that ARs like higher charges? Where do most of yall start off on the load range when reloading for an AR?
 
I am new to reloading, but before I do I bought several manuals, the lyman, speers, hornady, and barnes, still need to get noslers. From what I have researched every manufacturer, will have a different max and minimum load accoring to powders.

My train of thought is this, if I am loading using speers bullets, I will use the speers manual only for reloading and will use the powders they recommend accoding to the bullet size, ie 55 gr or 60 gr. etc. They list several poweders.

If I'm using barnes bullets than I use the barnes manual and their recommendation, same thing for horndady, and so forth.
 
First of all I'm wondering if part of the reason for the cycling issues was that I was seating at about max length for the magazine. Book said min OAL was 2.200. Could that extra room have caused low enough pressure to cause my cycling issues or is it that ARs like higher charges? Where do most of yall start off on the load range when reloading for an AR?
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No, seating depth will affect peak pressure. Gas generation will have a bigger effect on whether the round cycles the action or not. I've found that near max published charges are most accurate and cycle the action most reliably with .223. So long as you are within published loads, you still have a good margin of safety.
 
I used the fmjbt data, I could'nt find any data specific to the dogtowns. Arent they made by nosler though? If so I guess I could use their data?
 
I had 50gr. Dogtowns for a while and the box packaging was very similar to Nosler packaging. Which confirmed something I had read. I used the Nosler load book for them. But, I ran them in a bolt action and not the AR.

Also, I have found that most of my AR loads (55gr. anyway) seem to run best close to max for the .223 loads.

[ The Nosler 6 book says 25.5 grains of IMR4895 is MAX for 55gr. bullets. And is a compressed load at 102%. ]
 
Compared to Hodgdon's data, it does look like you're on the light end of the load range. And, your longer COAL could reduce pressures as well (depending on which bullet Hodgdon actually used for testing). So, it's probably just not enough pressure to properly cycle the action. But, it sounds like you're almost there.

From Hodgdon's Load Data website:

Bullet: 55 GR. SPR SP
Powder: IMR 4895
COAL: 2.200"

Starting Load
Charge Wt.: 23.0 gr
Velocity: 2843
Pressure: 39,500 PSI

Maximum Load
Charge Wt.: 26.2C
Velocity: 3219
Pressure:53,200 PSI
Click to expand...
 
Rushthezeppelin said:
So I just got back from the range working with my first load workup for my AR. Unfortunately not a single one of my loads would cycle my action.

I was using IMR4895 over 55gr dogtown HPs. Did three sets of 9 loads 22.5, 23.0 and 23.5 all seated to 2.255. Since I don't have a chrono I didn't want to go much higher than about midway up the load range that my Lee book recommended which was between 22.0 and 25.2. The 23.5s seemed to almost want to cycle enough as I had one that cycled enough to grab the ejector groove of one round causing it to jam up into my locking lug area.

Guess I'm going to do some 24.0 and 24.5. Don't want to go any higher than that since I don't have a chrono to test for pressure signs and the book stated that max load was compressed.

First of all I'm wondering if part of the reason for the cycling issues was that I was seating at about max length for the magazine. Book said min OAL was 2.200. Could that extra room have caused low enough pressure to cause my cycling issues or is it that ARs like higher charges? Where do most of yall start off on the load range when reloading for an AR?
Click to expand...
Your problem is not the COAL. The difference between 2.200" and 2.255" is really not that much, less than 6 one-hundredth of an inch. When your manual lists 2.200" as the OAL that's not the minimum OAL, it's the OAL they used when developing the data. Your bullet and rifle chamber will dictate what OAL you should use.

The load data in most manuals is tested in a pressure barrel, not a gas system semi-auto rifle. They test the data to be sure the pressures are not excessive not to assure the round will cycle a semi-auto rifle. You did nothing wrong but you will need to increase the charge weights until the ammo reliably cycles your rifle.

The powder you chose is also on the slow side for the .223 and might not have the correct pressure curve for your rifle. You might need to change powders. H335, H322, CFE223, AA2015, AA2230, Power Pro 1200-R, RL-10x, X-Terminator and a few others are all excellent choices for .223 ammo meant for use in an AR-15 platform.

Keep us updated...
 
ArchAngelCD said:
The powder you chose is also on the slow side for the .223 and might not have the correct pressure curve for your rifle. You might need to change powders. H335, H322, CFE223, AA2015, AA2230, Power Pro 1200-R, RL-10x, X-Terminator and a few others are all excellent choices for .223 ammo meant for use in an AR-15 platform.
Click to expand...

Actually, CFE223 is slower than IMR4895 per Hodgdon.

http://hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
 
I was using IMR4895 over 55gr dogtown HPs.
Click to expand...

1st problem. Usually, the powder goes in first, not the bullet. Would cause all kinds of feed issues, too. AND be quite messy.

I use 55g FMJ's over 24.5g of I4895 @ 2.200 - and my M4 cycles like a turnstile in rush hour. This is under the max load in my hornady manual.

I use 24.0 of H4895.

The 4895 powders are by no means "too" slow to use in .223 for autoloaders, and produce just the right amount of peak gas pressure when loaded properly to cycle the action as it should- no more, no less.

The operating window is small, but quite achievable.

I'd try runs of 24.5 and see how that works for you.

Going "ballistic charges" with high burn rate powders may get it to cycle for certain- and wear your gun prematurely as a result.
 
I did not and would not say 4895 is too slow for autoloaders, I said it was on the slow side. I said it might be on the slow side for HIS rifle.

cfullgraf,
Out of everything I was trying to say you pick that one little thing to point out. does it make you happy I might have been incorrect on one of the powders I listed? I guess Hodgdon doesn't know what they are doing when they designed CFE223 specifically for use in the .223/5.56mm. wow
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I just loaded up a new batch of 4 test subjects this time, 9 each of 24.0, 24.5, 25.0 and 25.5. Going back to the range tomorrow (left my bipod up at the shop anyway) and seeing how this combo works out for me. Will report back how this results and hopefully some pictures of tight groups. I will have to say one thing though, even with those light loads (they sure felt light too, alot less recoil than normal loads) that turned my gun into a bolt action I was still getting some pretty darn nice groups. Definitely giddy at the prospect of making some accurate loads for way cheaper than the $29 boxes of match 223 (granted I did get a 3/4" group with factory FMJ while I was there, my little dpms is a hoss on accuracy), these puppies are running right at about 20 cents a round.

1st problem. Usually, the powder goes in first, not the bullet. Would cause all kinds of feed issues, too. AND be quite messy.
Click to expand...

Well shoot that's were I was doing things wrong ROFL. Surprised they left my barrel with the way I was loading hehehe. Thanks for the correction on syntax, I've caught myself typing that before but not this time apparently. Maybe someday I'll get used to saying that right.
 
Rushthezeppelin,
I'm sure those loads will work out for you. Yes, it is very satisfying to build very accurate ammo that costs was less than the overpriced factory match ammo.

Good luck sir...
 
25.5.
Click to expand...

By my hornady manual- thats over the limit, btw.

I would try 24.5 and 25 and see if those work first.

Arch- I wasn't trying to knock ya- just didn't want the OP to get on the track that he had a powder he couldn't use.

Rush- I think its time ya got a manual ! And I'm glad ya can take the ribbing without too much drama. It gets a lil rough around here sometimes !

Merry christmas.
 
blarby said:
By my hornady manual- thats over the limit, btw.

I would try 24.5 and 25 and see if those work first.

Arch- I wasn't trying to knock ya- just didn't want the OP to get on the track that he had a powder he couldn't use.

Rush- I think its time ya got a manual ! And I'm glad ya can take the ribbing without too much drama. It gets a lil rough around here sometimes !

Merry christmas.
Click to expand...
I do need more manuals than just my Lee I will not deny that. As soon as I see Lyman #49 at one of my LGSs I will definitely be snagging that up.

As to the max load, I checked on nosler's website and they very clearly list FBHPs among other 55gr bullets as having a max load of 25.5 with 2% over case capacity and a tad bit of compression with an OAL of 2.260 which is what I seated both the 25.0 and 25.5 to (other two loads seated to 2.255 like before). I made sure to be extra careful and weigh each of the 25.5gr charges and all are right at or .1gr below (had a few that came out .1-.2gr over that I pulled out and recharged before seating bullets).

As to me being able to take ribbing I welcome all criticism. I ain't perfect but I try and be humble about this hobby especially (among other things in life) considering I'm still pretty new to it. If you think this place is a little rough, you should check out the texas gun forum I frequent, very salty people on there but still lots of good advice (and bad as always, just got to sort through it all).

If the lower loads provide good cycling and good accuracy I might just save the 25.5gr loads for when I get a collet die and pull them. Otherwise I will accept the risks and cross my fingers that I don't get a kaboom although as others have stated these published loads are usually have a good bit of safety tolerance.
 
Rushthezeppelin said:
I do need more manuals than just my Lee I will not deny that. As soon as I see Lyman #49 at one of my LGSs I will definitely be snagging that up.

If the lower loads provide good cycling and good accuracy I might just save the 25.5gr loads for when I get a collet die and pull them. Otherwise I will accept the risks and cross my fingers that I don't get a kaboom although as others have stated these published loads are usually have a good bit of safety tolerance.
Click to expand...
I think your choice of the Lyman manual is a good one. I think that's probably the best general manual around.

As for the slightly hot loads, no need to pull them especially if your AR is rated for 5.56mm ammo instead of .223 ammo. The pressures in 5.56mm ammo are higher than those in commercial .223 ammo and by a good number so they pressures you will generate by going .5gr over the Max will not be dangerous. You probably won't want to load heavy all the time but just to shoot off 9 rounds will probably be no problem at all.
 
Heard nothing but good things on the Lyman. Seems like it's the one manual every reloader should own.

Yes, my rifle is rated for 5.56. Although not sure I could go .5gr over max without filling the rifle case almost completely up. Definitely not interested in that, kinda sorta cringed on those 25.5gr loads hearing that slight crunch of those extruded granules. Anyways I need to get to bed if I want to have enough rest in me to shoot well tomorrow.

Have a good night and merry Christmas to you and your family.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
cfullgraf,
Out of everything I was trying to say you pick that one little thing to point out. does it make you happy I might have been incorrect on one of the powders I listed? I guess Hodgdon doesn't know what they are doing when they designed CFE223 specifically for use in the .223/5.56mm. wow
Click to expand...

Apologizes.

Some folks, including myself have had good results with either IMR4895 or H4895, my 4895 of choice, with 55 grain bullets in the 223 Remington. Both accuracy and velocity with my loads are comparable to other powders. Yes the two are not the same but both on Hodgdon's burn rate chart are listed as faster than CFE223. Most folks seem to agree if one of the 4895s performs fine in a rifle, the other will as well.

I have also had good success with W748 and 55 grain bullets in the 223 Remington, also slower than IMR4895, but faster than CFE223.

Upon introduction, Hodgdon touted CFE223 as a good powder for the 223 Remington. I use CFE223 in the 204 Ruger and one of these days will get around to trying it in the 223 Remington.

I agree, there may be other powders that would perform better in the OP's rifle but saying IMR4895 is "on the slow side" then recommending an even slower powder was a disconnect to me.
 
One of my standard loads for 55 grain FMJ is 25 grains of IMR 4895. They cycle my sons ranch rifle perfectly and show no pressure signs. This is with mil (LC) brass.It also works fine with 55 Win SPs. YMMV of course. I use Winchester SR primers.
 
Quote:
I was using IMR4895 over 55gr dogtown HPs.
1st problem. Usually, the powder goes in first, not the bullet. Would cause all kinds of feed issues, too. AND be quite messy.

I use 55g FMJ's over 24.5g of I4895 @ 2.200 - and my M4 cycles like a turnstile in rush hour. This is under the max load in my hornady manual.

I use 24.0 of H4895.

The 4895 powders are by no means "too" slow to use in .223 for autoloaders, and produce just the right amount of peak gas pressure when loaded properly to cycle the action as it should- no more, no less.

The operating window is small, but quite achievable.

I'd try runs of 24.5 and see how that works for you.
Click to expand...
This is pretty much what I do. 4895 is one of the best powders for AR15. Check your cases. A common problem is not lubricating the neck properly and the de-capping rod can pull the neck of the case upward. It's hard to see unless you compare it to a good case. This is a common cause of feeding issues.
 
Well just got back from second load development session with some better results. 24.0 definitely wasn't enough. 24.5 still had some feed issues, probably the lower variations in the charge were just barely not enough causing the bolt to only catch the extractor groove and give me those nasty brass marring jams. 25.0 and 25.5 were consistently enough for cycling. Both were about the same accuracy wise which was honestly a bit marginal but I didn't exactly have enough test subjects to determine truly, could have been a few shots thrown plus only having a Primary Arms 1-4x makes it a bit hard to really know I'm putting shots on the exact same spot. Both came out about 1.2-1.5" groups for the little groups I put out (I've managed sub-moa a several times with AE 223). Thinking about investing in a Nikon P223 for accuracy shooting or maybe grabbing the 1-6x from Primary Arms, both are about the same price.
 
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