Where to seat 148gr WCBB?

[Shrinkmd]

I have these bullets from Dardascast.com:

I measured a batch which I crimped into the groove above the last lube band, and not flush. I was getting about 680 fps with 2.8 gr of Bullseye, and 695 with 2.9 gr. using a Federal SP primer.

I was reading other sources on the next, and it sounds like I should expect ~800 fps from a 4" barrel with the 2.8 load. Should I try this same recipe with them seated flush and a light roll crimp on top? Is there any reason you would want to seat them out so far, into that first groove, as opposed to flush?

 

[Walkalong]

The first groove from the top right before the fist lube groove is a crimp groove. I would use that. Just a light roll crimp into it.

Naturally you can seat them flush if you want and give them a light taper crimp, or seat a bit deeper and lightly roll crimp over the top edge. Your gun may prefer one over the other, and it might not show any difference.

 

[zxcvbob]

I'd crimp them into the crimp groove and load them at 3.0 grains of Bullseye or 2.5 grains of Red Dot. I would have expected 700+ fps from the 2.8 load and about 800 for the 2.9's, but the seating depth really does make that much difference sometimes.

How did they shoot?

 

[Shrinkmd]

That is where I crimped into, but my fps are so low! Lyman manual lists a similar bullet and gives an OAL of 1.317 on a bevel based wadcutter which appears to have three lube grooves, so it looks awfully similar to the bullets I have. They start at 3.1 gr of Bullseye to make 837 fps, according to Lyman.

They shot ok, although they smeared lead all over the front of the cylinder, and it was difficult to remove. I have shot plenty of other lead (both 38 and 357 loaded 158 SWC from the same bullet caster) and never had lead there. Maybe because they were too slow? The barrel was fine, which is odd. I had to take the cylinder off and scrub it with Flitz, lead remover cloth, bronze brush, and it still wasn't perfectly clean. Usually it is not a problem. I did not observe when the leading happened, since shot 4 different batches of 2.6-2.9 gr of Bullseye.

I will try some 3.0-3.3 gr of Bullseye, and see if I can get the fps up to about 800. Isn't that supposed to be the magic accuracy sweet spot for wadcutter bullets, or only for the HBWC's. These, after all, are different, being solid bevel base wadcutters.

 

[918v]

If you seat them flush, you may bulge the case. If you want 800 FPS, up the powder charge.

 

[918v]

I will try some 3.0-3.3 gr of Bullseye, and see if I can get the fps up to about 800. Isn't that supposed to be the magic accuracy sweet spot for wadcutter bullets, or only for the HBWC's. These, after all, are different, being solid bevel base wadcutters.

There is no magic sweet spot with a 2.7/8 grain charge of Bullseye. That is a myth.

 

[bluetopper]

You will not bulge the case with these powder puff loads if you seat them flush, but the crimp groove is there for a reason. if you want more fps just add a little more powder.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Ok, so maybe a better question is (and I know the answer is "It depends") but what fps are most people shooting at for "best" accuracy? I remember hearing that ~800 fps is best for 38special and 45acp target loads. Of course, the lighter ones are even easier to shoot, but I have no problem shooting 357 magnum or full power 45acp, so I'm not concerned about flinching at this point.

 

[bluetopper]

800fps sounds good to me. If you have to go a bit over listed max to achieve this, don't worry about it.

My best friend is an old bullseye shooter from the 1970's and he swears by 3.5gr of Bullseye for his target load with 148gr wadcutters.

 

[918v]

Depending on brand, you may bulge the case if you seat them flush. These are not HBWC that will conform to the inner profile of the case.

 

[mbopp]

I'm shooting the same bullets from Dardas.
The load I settled on is 4.5gr of Unique in a 357 case. In the M-19 I find that crimping in the first lube groove gave better accuracy than seated flush or the crimp groove. But they don't drop in the cylinder, I have to push them in the last few thousandths. I have no idea what the velocity is.
Bullseye, Red Dot, and 231 don't shoot as well, and I've been up and down the range of charge weights. My most accurate load, bar none, is 6gr of Unique topped by a Berrys plated DEWC in a 357 case.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I was going to do the 357 case thing, but then I came into a whole bunch of 38 special cases. One or two passes with a steel chamber brush (from Brownells) and you wouldn't know that the gun was ever fired.

Well, later this afternoon I will make up some 3.0-3.3 (since Lyman lists a max charge of 3.5 gr) and see how I do.

I was also just thinking, is it possible that my cylinder gap is too large? I don't have feeler gauges, but I do have my calipers. Can I accurately use those to measure the cylinder gap? And where do I measure the gap from? I'll have to rtfm about that...

 

[918v]

Cylinder gap does not affect accuracy. Try different powders. Try different primers. Bullseye is not necessarily the best powder for these bullets. If they are hard cast, you may do better with a slower burning powder.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi shrinkmd,


What is the Revolver?


And, is it chambered for .357 Magnum, or, .38 Special?


Also...if the Cylinder Throats are too large for the Bullet...or, if the Bullet is too small for them, and, for the Bore, you will get Leading, poor accuracy, and more mess.

Can you measure the Throats and Bore?


Cylinder to Forcing Cone gap - you can get a set of Feeler Gauges at any Autoparts Store, Sears Automotive section, e-bay, etc.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Sorry for forgetting the details...

S&W 686 4" (so it is a 357 mag)

During the week I plan to hit the auto parts store and get the feeler gauges.

I need to slug all my bores, but it is low on my "honey-do" list because my other calibers are shooting pretty well with the standard sized (0.001" more than bore) lead bullets, without much leading to speak of.

 

[Walkalong]

They shot ok, although they smeared lead all over the front of the cylinder, and it was difficult to remove...............Maybe because they were too slow?

Most likely flame cutting when they pass through the 1/8" of chamber (and perhaps throats as well) where there is no way they obturated to seal at that low pressure. They must fit the barrel well since you had no leading, at least in a small amount of firing. Cylinder gap will affect velocity, but not accuracy. Up your powder charge to get a better seal and the velocity you want. If it still leads the face of the cylinder use .357 brass and see if that eliminates it.

Like Oyboten posted, what do your throats measure?

I think more powder and perhaps going to .357 brass will likely solve the problem, unless your throats are way oversized.

 

[Oyeboten]

I like those Bullets...might just send off for some.


But yes, if in a .357 Magnum, maybe best to use .357 Magnum Cases.


I myself am planning on Loading .357 Full Wadcutters for plinking...so, glad this Thread gave me some more inspiration and thoughts.

I sent off for 500 new Shell Casings, so, will use those.

Depth of seating does effect pressure conditions...which as far as I gather, may or may not effect accuracy. If in this instance, unless outragously deep seated, probably is not an issue...if in short Cases, it very easily is.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I noticed that the OAL was varying from 1.290 to about 1.310. It is mixed once fired brass, and I didn't retrim them all, so I guess that is why the crimp (and likely OAL) is varying so much. I was trying to crimp into the groove.

Should I be concerned that my OAL is lower that Lyman's 1.310 for a similar bullet? These are low pressure 38's in a 357 after all, but I don't want any problems.

 

[Oyeboten]

Well...I myself like a nice uniform Crimp for Revolver Cartridges.

This ends up meaning that I either sort through all my mixed-Headstamp Cases, into say, three groups, possibly discarding however many in-between-lenghs, so I can set the Crimp Die for a good, Uniform Crimp on each Batch...

Or, I have to trim everyone to be the same length, which would of course be the best resort...though I have not got myself a Case Trimmer outfit yet to do it, sooner or later, I will.

The best uniformity one can get, is a good goal.


OAL for .38 Special, or, for .357 Magnum, seems to be pretty forgiving usually.

If a Bullet sticks out too far, it may be merely a matter of having to press hard to get it to go all the way into the Cylinder, for the Bullet itself to be in the Cylinder Throat...and, a right match between Bullet and Throat, would mean a hard press to get it in all the way.

And when fitting snug with no endplay, if the Cartridge is not in all the way, for the Rim to be absolutely against the Cylinder Face, one is likely to have a non-fire when the Hammer Falls.


I don't think I like the idea of shooting .38 Special Cases in the longer Primary Cylinder Bores of a .357 Magnum.


I think one would be happier using .357 Magnum Cases, and loading/re-loading those.

That way, there is no nasty gap for the Bullet to be insulted by with Gas Blow-Bye and fouling, and, all is snug and effecient, and easier clean up later, with no hard ring-of-crud built up in the 'gap' there...which, if not cleaned up, cleaned out fully, can offer a kind of bad condition for running actual .357 Cartridges, since there will be a constriction at the end of Cylinder's primary Bore confronting the Case end, trying to in-effect swage the Bullet smaller in order for it to pass, if the Cartridges even chamber fully with reasonable effort, at all.

 

[bluetopper]

Yes, I like shooting 38 brass in my 38's and 357 brass in my 357.
Wadcutters at magnum power in a 357 is fun too.....but that's a whole other topic.

 

[Fatelvis]

You don't have to slug you cylinder throats. A quick and simple way to see if your bullets are the correct diameter, is to drop your sized and lubed bullet (not cartridge) into the cylinder. The bullet should barely slide through the throat using gravity, or might have to be given a little push with a pencil, punch, etc. If the bullet freefalls though, onto the floor, it is too small. If it has to be driven through using a mallet, it's too big.
I believe it was Skeeter Skelton that used a "field kit" for reloading while in the wild. He would pack a bullet mould for his relvolver, some lead, primers, powder, Lyman 310, etc., and would use his cylinder as a sizer for his bullets, before he loaded them. Those bullets were custom sized for that gun. You gotta love his inginuity!