Which .22 is more accurate in the 100 yards to 200 yard range?

[Hybrid-x]

Aloha,

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with BOTH of the following rifles or older versions of them and if they can give me some insight. I am looking for best accuracy to about 100-200 yards but I will be pushing even farther if possible later. I have seen a youtube vid of the BTVS shooting to 400 yards accurately on a 2' x 2' target and I thought that was pretty impressive. If you have any other recommendations could you please explain as much as possible as to why you would recommend that rifle over the two I am looking at. If you have experience with them please make comparisons so that it would be easier for me to decide.

The two rifles I am currently looking at are:
Savage Mark II BTVS
CZ-455

This is my first rifle, and I would like to start with a pretty good rifle that I can grow into skill wise. I will be shooting at paper targets at the local range and want to push myself as far as distances goes. I have read many reviews and so far it seems like these two rifles are fairly accurate and at moderate (to me) prices. Not to mention the .22 cal rounds are the cheapest so I can go out and have a fun day without breaking the bank. i will be purchasing a scope, probably in the 4.5-12x40mm range.

Thank you very much for your time and help in advance. Have a great day.

Mahalo,

Matt

 

[Pete D.]

From what I have read, both rifles are fine shooters.
For your stated plans, there are other factors which may be at least as important,
Ammo choice is one. Not all .22LR ammo is equal and rimfire weapons frequently show a distinct preference for certain brands, bullet weights dnd velocities.
Another important aspect of shooting as you plan to do is learning to "dope the wind". Those little bullets are very sensitive to moving air.
The gun is only one step in the journey.
Have fun.
Pete

 

[Hybrid-x]

Aloha Pete,

For ammo I figured I would test a bunch of different ammo at 50 yards and 100 yards to see which has better groupings. When I get better I will test ammo again at 150 yards and 200 yards because I have read up on bullets and how when they drop below Mach they become turbulent which throws aim off.

As far as doping the scope for wind, that is something that I look forward to learning as I practice. I believe being able to setup your shots correctly is part of the fun of shooting. I know there are also wind age tables I can look up. I still haven't found out if I need to purchase anything besides the scope to mount a score for these rifles and I haven't figured out the MOA thing. Rails that have MOA to increase the MOA of the scope, how much is required and so forth and so on. I will learn as I go and hopefully by asking questions people will be nice enough to give me a hand.

For now the gun is the first step of my journey.

Thank you very much for your time and input I will take it all into consideration.

Mahalo,

Matt

 

[cthulhufan]

Either rifle is good IMO. My CZ-452 works well at 100 but I've yet to shoot further. I need to do that.

For 100 meters, I have found the best groups with ammunition that does not exceed the sound barrier. My rifle likes
CCI Standard Velocity (my main plinking ammo)
Wolf Match Extra
RWS Target Rifle
Eley Match

I shoot a lot of the CCI Standard Velocity and break out the Wolf Match Extra when I really want to get serious practice.

Good luck with whatever you chose and I hope you have a great time!

 

[goon]

I've matched a .303 Enfield out to 170 yards shot for shot with my CZ-452 using the iron sights.

 

[ball3006]

Shooting a 22 over 100 yards is pushing the envelope for that cartridge. Ammo selection and alot of practice will help. Save up your bucks for a rlfle in a larger caliber for longer range shooting. A 100 dollar Mosin Nagant comes to mind.....chris3

 

[Pete D.]

push

pushing the envelope for that cartridge.

Maybe that is the point.
Pete

 

[Furncliff]

Go to You Tube and search CZ 452, there are a bunch of long range video's there for this fine rifle. I own three CZ/Brno's as well as a Savage,. Savage makes a great rifle, the CZ's are the next step up. Here is a link to just one of those LR videos (225 yd).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HljWrGc_VcQ

You may want to check out ...
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php

For the kind of long range shooting your talking about you will need to budget for some serious glass. Something with target turrets.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Get yourself the Savage, some match (subsonic) ammo and go shoot. You'd be surprised what the little rimfire is capable of. I've been itching to try my hand at 200-yd .22LR shooting for a while, but haven't taken the time to drag the gear to the range, nor do I want to do it when the temperature is in the freezing range.

And get good glass, but you certainly don't need super high magnification stuff out to 200 yards. Here's a 100-yd prone target shot using an old Winchester 52, Wolf Match Target ammo and Redfield Olympic iron sights. I own those two low 9s, not the equipment:

 

[d2wing]

Nice furncliff.

 

[Hybrid-x]

Aloha Cthulhufan,

Thanks for the input. From your post, I am guessing there may be multiple ammunition brands that may work with the rifle but on the other hand there may be only one or two that work well.

Aloha Goon,

That's pretty impressive. When you shoot your CZ do you have to account for the drop to match your .303? I read somewhere the drop of a .22 at 125 yards is something like 8 or 15 inches and the .303 wouldn't show noticeable drop till the 250 to 300 yard mark.

Aloha Ball3006,

As Pete has said, the whole point of this rifle is to push the envelope. I would like to learn the basic skills of shooting with sights and then improve on them. I would like to push myself and the rifle to its limits before moving up. It's the challenge that draws me to try shooting and not just the fact that one rifle goes boom louder than the other. Not to mention I would rather learn and improve my skills on 10 cents a shot rather than 50 cents to a dollar per shot.

Aloha Pete,

Thank you for your support.

Aloha Furncliff,

That is a pretty nice video. I can't see how those targets are 4 inches by 4 inches though. Maybe 4 foot by 4 foot? Still either way iron sights that is pretty impressive. The video that interested me in going this route in the first place is this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHI4C9BIdj8&feature=fvwrel

It is a guy shooting at a 2 foot by 2 foot target at 400 yards with the BTVS (scoped).

I will read a bit more of the stuff at the rimfirecentral forum, some of the searches I made have ended up there. I noticed a lot of the people on rimfirecentral will add in information about the anschutz rifles that cost $3600 when it comes to accuracy posts, and I know they are amazing Olympic gold medal winning rifles, but I am not interested at all in those rifles.

Aloha Wanderinwalker,

Nice shooting. I was looking to spend somewhere around the same price on my scope as I will on my rifle, maybe a little less. I was told if I want to do what I have in mind, in the long run it would be more beneficial to me to purchase a scope that will be worth it. I was looking at the Nikkon Bushmaster 4.5-12x40mm with parallax adjustment. I believe it was up to a 12x at least, it could have been a max of 9x. It is about $350.00 at the local Sports Authority. I am definitely looking to shoot looking through a scope at those ranges and will not be testing my eye on iron sights until after I have reached those achievements.

 

[BrocLuno]

Moving air and crossing the sonic barrier will upset the little 22 and neither has anything to do with the rifle. My best shooting 22 is a Remington 513T which has a detachable magazine, but their model 40-X will do even better. The Winchester Model 52 is a known fine shooter.

There are actually a bunch of 22's out there that will out-shoot all but the best of us. I would not be afraid of a good used model of know accuracy. Walther, Anshutz, Kimber, even Baikal make competition grade 22 shooters that will do what you want. What's already in the pipeline in you area?

 

[cthulhufan]

Aloha Cthulhufan,

Thanks for the input. From your post, I am guessing there may be multiple ammunition brands that may work with the rifle but on the other hand there may be only one or two that work well.

Yep. No matter what rifle you choose, if you are going for accuracy at or past 100 meters, stick to subsonic ammunition. That's my personal experience anyway. You have plenty of choices and your rifle will be the ultimate judge on that. Stick to stuff that gives you 1,000 FPS or greater; don't mess with primer only stuff like CB Long or Aguila Colibri/Super Colibri etc etc. My advice is to try anything in between 1,000 and 1,090 FPS.

Buy in small batches until you find what your particular rifle likes to throw down range and then buy bricks of it.

You said this is your first rifle so I'm going to recommend you spend a little time getting used to your rifle and get it sighted in and then *attend an Appleseed shoot*. Speaking from experience, the Appleseed shoot will teach you the very best fundamentals of rifle shooting.

Also, if this is truly your first rifle, don't skimp on those optics if that's the path you want to take. I'd recommend starting with a nice peep sight but if you're going to start with optics, at least do it with good ones. Your scope may cost as much as your rifle but it makes a world of difference. Remember, though, magnification can not compensate for poor technique.

Have fun!

 

[DCoke]

I've only fired one CZ and it was a fine rifle but I'm still partial to my Savage Mk II BTVSS. It didn't cost as much and shoots great. I've posted this pic/link on other .22 blurbs on THR. Here it is again

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=631359

Gusting 20-30 mph l-r winds that day. With .22 took 3 shots, hit high, adjusted, shot low, split the difference in my elevation setting....did the same with my .204 shots...3 shots, adjusted, hit low, split the difference.

 

[Hybrid-x]

Aloha BrocLuno,

Yes, there are a lot of different .22 LRs that would work for what I would like to do, but the cost vs. efficiency vs. buying new vs. objective is what I am looking at. By selecting the 2 rifles that I have, I have put the cost difference aside as it is minimal. I have read outstanding reviews for both and some very biased reviews for both (I try to take it all with a grain of salt). I have always been in the habit of buying things new regardless of what it is because you never know how the previous owner treated it. I like to take care of my things and who knows what the next person likes to do. As far as objective is concerned, I am trying to get advice from others about what would be best and why. What makes one better than the other. Sometimes it just sucks being an engineer.

I live on Oahu, island of Hawaii so our selection is limited. I will be ordering the rifle through Sports Authority, or a local distributor here like Young Guns. I don't think a lot of people shoot here in Hawaii and if they do it is usually hand guns, shotguns, or AR-15 style rifles.

Aloha Cthulhufan,

I was under the impression that the higher velocity rounds were better for short distances because they have flatter trajectories before they hit that transition. It is definitely something I will have to toy with and find what ammunition is best suited for the rifle I purchase.

Appleseed shoot sounds very fun and interesting, but living in Hawaii... I don't think they will come out here, and I don't think I could afford to bring them here on my dime either!

The guy at Sports Authority has been a huge help in the optics side of things. I had no idea there were so many things to consider. I read up on the parallax and all that when he told me to and he suggested a scope with a parallax adjustment. I'm not sure how that works, but I think as far as scope goes, if it is a high quality scope it will just take getting used to it to be a good fit for me.

Aloha DCoke,

Nice shooting. I finally found your OP on the targets and saw your explanation. Good shooting! It may or may not be possible but I would like to attempt to do what you did at lets say 300 yards or more. That is my type of goal. It may not be achievable, but I will try to do my best. I guess if I aim high, when the bullet falls I won't be too far off my mark! That's so bad, just started getting into rifles and already I am making shooting puns.

Aloha CJ 74,

Thank you for the insight. I figured both rifles were evenly matched and that at this point it would all be personal preference. I just wanted to make sure as I probably wouldn't be able to buy another rifle for a while, at least until I shoot as much ammo through the rifle as I will be paying for the rifle and scope. I am definitely leaning towards the Savage Mark II BTVS, but I am willing to hear both sides of the story.

Since I live in Hawaii it is hard to find someone with either rifle to try it out. On top of that, I do not know anyone who shoots as I will be going into this head first. I have a friend who has shown some interest in it and maybe he will pick up a rifle and I will have a shooting buddy, but we will see.

So far from the majority of the posts I am receiving, I shouldn't be worrying about which rifle I pick but the ammunition I put in it. It is good advice and I will take it to heart. I believe Sports Authority did carry the Wolf brand ammo so I will look into it.

Thank you everyone for your responses, please keep them coming.

Have a great day!

Mahalo,

Matt

 

[cthulhufan]

Here is an appleseed group in Hawaii: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=131.0

Do yourself a favor and go. You will not regret it.

One point about the optics. Don't worry about the features so much as the quality of the glass. Get a fixed 4x40mm scope and start with that or a 3-9 variable (zoom) such as this: http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-ii-riflescopes/vx-ii-3-9x40mm/

You're just starting out, you don't need target turrets and parallax correction. You need good sights/scope. You will be having a tough enough time keeping a good group without having to worry about extra gizmos and junk to worry about.

 

[Hybrid-x]

Aloha Cthulhufan,

Thank you for the info. I couldn't find anything on Oahu (Island I am on) but I will have to dig into it later. Have a dental appt. Thanks for the great news though, there is hope that maybe I can attend an appleseed shoot.

I figured if the scope had all the gizmos, I could leave the gizmos alone till I get better with shooting and then mess with the gizmos which will keep me from having to upgrade later.

Thanks for the help.

Mahalo,

Matt

 

[cthulhufan]

I figured as much and I do apologize; here in the CONUS, you just drive and it's easy to forget that Hawaii doesn't work like that I hope you are able to hook up with the Appleseed group there.

Again, only my opinion, ditch the features and buy good glass.

Good luck, and have a lot of fun. I also wanted to say "woohoo!" since you choose bolt action over semi-automatic. It's a very rewarding endeavor. Post pics of whatever rig you end up with.

 

[Manny]

I had a very accurate CZ 452 with a nice 2.5-10 Weaver Grand Slam and will NEVER make the mistake of getting a scope without paralex adjustment on a rimfire again. You can easily use the top magnifincation at distance as close as 25 yards IF you can adjust the paralex, no go if you can't. I swapped the Weaver for a 4-12x40 Bushnel with an AO and it worked much better despite being a lower quality scope. I disagree VERY much about no need for paralex correction or target turrets because "you're just starting out". A quality scope with these features doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, especially if you go with a fixed power which will give much more scope for the money than a variable. True, the paralex adjustment is mostly needed for closer distance, are you sure that you'll ALWAYS want to shoot at longer distance? Even if you are truely wanting to shoot at 100 to 200 yards you need all the help you can get. Not neccesarily high magnification, though in certain instances that can help, but shooting a .22 to 200 yards and even further can be excellent training for shooting centerfire rifles to even further distances. My gun club has a 200 yard .22lr shoot a couple of times a year and you will truely learn about how wind effects bullets, how to contensate for trajectory and alot of other lessens that will make you a better shooter.

You are looking at getting a very accurate rifle no matter which you go with, get a good scope with accurate adjustments, plenty of internal adjustment and adjustible paralex. The Super Sniper series costs about $300 in either 6x or 10x, are very well regarded and would be a wonderfull choice for either rifle.

 

[d2wing]

Today it got up to 35 with no wind so I took my CZ452 American out. It sure is purdy. Anyway I shot a 5 round group at 100 yards, prone with a rest and got a 1 1/2 inch group, useing Federal Automatch bulk ammo. It printed 5 inches low, sighted in for 50 yards. I have another CZ that is more accurate but didn't have it along.

 

[Robtattoo]

This thread got me interested in seeing just what I could do with my small stable (ok, pair) of .22s at 100+yds.

I stood 2 coke cans out at 100 & 200 yds & shot 10 shots at each, with each rifle. I managed to hit each can, at both ranges, with both rifles. 10 out of 10 for each rifle at 100yds. At 200 things opened up a little. I only managed 3 hits with one rifle & 6 hits with the other.

All shots were offhand, standing. The ammunition a mixture of Winchester, Federal & Remington bulk (I just grabbed a handful)

The rifles are a heavy barreled Ruger 10/22 with a $30 Tasco 3-9x50 (6 hits at 200) & an open sighted Henry lever action (3 at 200)

I was thoroughly surprised at how accurate these 2 little rifles were. I don't know how they'd group if benched properly & shot with care, but 'minute of coke can' at 100yds, offhand is just fine with me!

 

[Clayne_b]

I can not compare directly I have a cz 452 scout, and my friend has a Savage Mark II TR. they both shoot really well.

Here are 2 pictures both shot at 50 yards with CCI SV, 5 shots

CZ


Savage


Here is a group I shot with the CZ at 144 yards, 5 shots


I would have a hard time deciding witch of the 2 is the most accurate, He shoots his, i shoot mine and they have been very close as far as accuracy goes. anywhere form 50 to 500 yards.

 

[Skylerbone]

Somewhere back in '92 or '93 I bought a brand new Marlin 25N for under $90 and put a Bushnell 4X AO on it for a total of $140. It's my squirrel rifle so it rarely sees 75 yds. but on the bench it shoots sub 1/2" groups at 50 yds. At that distance my scope's crosshairs obscure the target making true accuracy measurements difficult.

The point? It's been mentioned that there are many accurate .22s made and I agree. If I were looking for a first rifle for those distances and didn't require pinpoint accuracy I'd spend less on the rifle and more on the scope. When you decide to move up to centerfire you'll have a great scope and won't loose much by keeping the .22 and shooting sights.

Another option to consider.

 

[goon]

Agreed on the capabilities of most decent .22's. In my youth I used the old family Remington 512 to plink so often that my dad had to take the .22 ammo to work with him to keep me from shooting it all. Even after fifty years of use or so (then) it was still minute of coffee cup with any ammo at 100 yards from whatever improvised rest I could come up with on the local abandoned strip-mines. If you learn to pay attention to wind making a 200 yard shot isn't that impossible. It's kind of a surprise when it happens, but it's sort of a predictable surprise.

 

[Aiko492]

This thread makes me want a drink with an umbrella in it thinking beach