Which .223 for HD?

[W.E.G.]

Best value on a shooter-grade AR is CMMG's Bargain Bin.

CMMG has been running the Bargain Bin option for quite sometime, and has excellent reviews.
Buy with confidence.

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/Chrome-Lined-Bargain-Bin-16-inch-M4-1490

 

[kis2]

thanks for all the replies so far guys, very helpful

do these 'bargain bin' ar's have good bones? as in, if I wanted to make upgrades to make them better shooters later, can I do that? besides the good reviews, anyway of knowing I'm not getting a 'trade in' upper that's been shot out?

thanks again

 

[Girodin]

Girodin - We're talking about home defense, not shooting jackrabbits.

You were talking about what is quicker to the shoulder and which was quicker to acquire targets. I was giving one context in which those things are apparent. I have also used these weapons for other types of shooting more analogous to defensive shooting and the difference is apparent there also.

the longest shot in my house is going to be approximately seven yards.

We don't all live in really small houses and additionally some open floor plans mean you can have a fair distance from point A to point B inside a home.

As far as needing to "acquire multiple targets in succession," this does not really apply to home defense.

Well unless there is more than one person you are defending from. I suppose that never ever happens. Actually i would submit that it is rather probable.

I would think in most houses, if a gun is kept somewhere in a bedroom, you will probably have an encounter with an intruder maybe in a hallway.

This seems like an assumption that has no empirical basis and is far from one I would be counting on as a given or even likely. Many homes don't have layouts with narrow hallways. Furthermore, if the gun is in the bedroom I wouldn't even go out, unless I had need to secure other people in my home etc. It quickly becomes apparent that where one is likely to be and thus likely to run into a BG depends on circumstances that are not universal.

Also, "less than $400" + $600 is "less" than $1k. I'm not necessarily saying the PLR 16 is better than an AR, I'm just saying for the criteria Kis2 laid out, it would be a vary viable option. At about a $600 price tag, it would leave him options to accessorize the gun as he saw fit.

You're right I wasn't reading carefully (that's what I get for posting after right after waking up from a late Saturday night out) and was just being lighthearted at any rate. I wouldn't pay $600 for PLR even I was going to get one. Around these parts I see them for less than $500 but I do know prices vary regionally.

A good AR is going to run him right at his $1k limit, which means he gets the gun and that's it. He can't customize it until he gets some more $$$.

He sated in his original post that $1k was his budget without optics so no reason to place extra limitations on him.

I'm not necessarily saying the PLR 16 is better than an AR, I'm just saying for the criteria Kis2 laid out, it would be a vary viable option.

I wouldn't say that one couldn't defend themselves with a PLR-16. I'm sure they could. I am saying there are undoubtedly better choices for a dedicated HD gun. Personally I'd rather have something better than something that is merely viable. That's just me. Further if we are going to impose cost weighing I'd rather have a converted saiga for 400 with and ultimak and an aimpoint micro for another $650 than a PLR with an eotech. That's just based on my uses and experience though.


As to the CMMG bargain bin rifles. They do get good reviews and might well be adequate if you can afford a nicer rifle that is the route I would go. Cared for guns last a long time. What is a couple hundred dollars difference over the serviceable life of a firearm? I've never felt bad about buying a nicer gun that I could afford to a cheaper one. I have regretted not just spending a little more initially though.

 

[TonyAngel]

Are you talking about a secondary firearm? What do you mean by home defense? Shooting at people that are approaching your home or fending off someone that has already entered your home? If it's for fending off someone that is already in your home, a rifle is not the best choice. If you find yourself in a situation where you are all of a sudden a few feet apart and he can get his hands on you or your rifle, the danger that he will take it away from you and shoot you with it is real. A rifle takes two hands to handle. A handgun only takes one hand to handle leaving the other free for defensive purposes.

 

[Greenmachin3]

For the most part, I agree with Girodin. My house has no halls, as he suggests. It's more of a cluster of major rooms with satellite rooms type of layout.

If I were going the Kel-Tec route, I think a Kel-Tec PLR-16 re-barrelled in the new AAC 300BLK round would be a nice HD weapon. No bolt or mag differences, just barrel. However, I might start worrying about over penetration, but it ought to have much less flash and sound. Since it's not .223, moving on. BTW, IIRC most PLR-16 I've seen go for ~$450-$480. It wouldn't be my first choice, though.

It's tough wanting a jack-of-all .223 rifle. Personally, I would go with a mini-14. Now I know some will moan about it, but it's got that wood-stocked-I'm-a-hunting-weapon-not-looking-for-a-fight styling to it that my help in the HD aftermath. They can be accurized well enough and inexpensively. Not AR accuracy, but pretty decent if you do your part. They're reliable IMO, and with an Ultimak rail you've got some decent rail space for whatever reflex sight you want. If you want to tacticool it out later down the road, they can look pretty mean, too.

I find the $1000 mark a difficult price limit for semi-auto "tactical" rifles. Of all the sub-$1000 rifles I've owned, the best were mil-surp or hunters, the worst were newly manufactured "tactical".

 

[Hatterasguy]

I know someone who swears by his MP5, (yes class 3) for HD. But has been shooting them since he was in the Rangers so he has a bit of "experience" with the platform.


Another thing to consider is sound and flash, firing a gun inside is crazy loud. You probably should get a can as well so you don't disorientate yourself. Sleepy+dark room+ loud bangs+ flash= no hearing and *** is going on loss of situational awareness fast.

 

[deputy tom]

M2,I'll bet with that brake the Bushmaster really barks as well.tom.

 

[ugaarguy]

If it's for fending off someone that is already in your home, a rifle is not the best choice. If you find yourself in a situation where you are all of a sudden a few feet apart and he can get his hands on you or your rifle, the danger that he will take it away from you and shoot you with it is real. A rifle takes two hands to handle. A handgun only takes one hand to handle leaving the other free for defensive purposes.

If you're a few feet apart an intruder can just as easily get is hands on your pistol. One hand on your pistol, and one hand trying to fight off the intruder? Sounds to me like a good way to get disarmed. I'd rather have two hands on my rifle and use the rifle to defend. That way I can employ muzzle thrusts or butt strokes. Another factor is that a pistol can be taken out of battery by grasping the slide at the muzzle. Unless you're shooting an M1941 Johnson, or similar recoiling bbl semi-auto, that isn't an issue. YMMV.

 

[tactikel]

While the PLR is very handy IMHO the Kel-Tec SU-16C is more versatile, can be fired folded (25" OAL) and is well under $800. Durable? My "charlie" has 6K rounds thru her and is as tight and accurate as new.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/su-16c-2/

BTW unless you live out in the country far from any neighbors, a shotgun would probably serve you better.

 

[W.E.G.]

do these 'bargain bin' ar's have good bones? as in, if I wanted to make upgrades to make them better shooters later, can I do that? besides the good reviews, anyway of knowing I'm not getting a 'trade in' upper that's been shot out?

I've never heard of a Bargain Bin gun that showed ANY signs of appreciable use.

I don't think you can do much to make a Bargain Bin gun a "better shooter." I've read innumerable posts about these guns on different boards, and everybody agrees they ALREADY ARE excellent shooters.

Add rear sight and Barbie-Dress-Up accessories (or not), and you're good to go.

If you want latest-greatest, or proprietary features, buy something else, and pay a whole lot more for it.

The Bargain Bin guns just prove what we already knew.
There is no good reason for all the other AR-15's being so expensive.

Skip the flash, save some cash.

 

[kis2]

thanks for all the replies so far guys, I've gotten to learn!

just so you all know where I'm heading, I have a sig in 9mm for carry and I want to suppress it for HD (for noise and flash concerns). I think my end goal with the .223 may be to get an AR with good bones that I could upgrade as I go into an nice (still light) accurate rifle and then suppress it as well. that'll complete my firearm family. I know there are a lot of hypothetical situations we could discuss, but ultimately I feel this gives me all the options I should need, so we don't really need to get into them

I'm leaning the AR route because of my familiarity with rifles, but I'm not ruling out those little pistols. if I'm trying to push a lighter .223 bullet, I should be looking at 1:9 twist?.... a lot of them I see are 1:7....

What I may end up doing is suppressing the pistol now, saving up some more cash in the gun fund so I can increase the budget on this thing.

thanks again all

 

[ugaarguy]

BTW unless you live out in the country far from any neighbors, a shotgun would probably serve you better.

Except that .223 JSPs and ballistic tips typically penetrate LESS than 0 and 00 buck shot - as already stated in this thread.

 

[crazyivan]

Mini-14 ranch rifle .
well under $1k ($780 a year ago they might have gone down in price)
Will always fire when you need it too even if you used a lot of dirty ammo and did not clean it or if you are using lowcost russian ammo.
You can get a rail that mounts to the ring slots.

 

[bri]

If you're going to drop $600 on a "bargain bin" rifle, why not save/spend a bit and purchase a rifle that is much closer to "top-tier" for only a couple hundred more?

Research Spikes Tactical and BCM.

 

[Girodin]

I think my end goal with the .223 may be to get an AR with good bones that I could upgrade as I go into an nice (still light) accurate rifle and then suppress it as well.

One thing to think about if your end goal is to suppress the AR is the barrel length. You will probably add about 5" with a suppressor. It adds expense and may not be the way you want to go ultimately but it is at least worth considering whether a SBR would suit your needs better or not. Even with a tax stamp a BCM might be close to your budget.

BCM 12.5" upper receiver group $375 http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-12-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-12.htm

Gunfighter charging handle $45 (or get a basic one for 15) http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-s/123.htm

BCM bolt carrier group $140 http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Auto-M16-p/bcm bolt carrier group auto mp.htm

Complete lower, this can vary a lot based on what exactly you get but I did a basic one with a T6 stock on a CMMG lower for $220. One might be able to do it for less and could certainly spend more (heck one can spend about $220 on a stock) if they were so inclined.

Add some MOE handguards $30 http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-MOE-Enhanced-Handguard-BLACK-p/mag405 blk.htm

Add the rear sight of your choice. Prices vary.

Pay the govt. $200 for a tax stamp

You are pretty close to $1K (I think, we already established earlier on this thread I cannot always do math )

The above would be a fine gun. Add the accessories you deem fit and that work for you application (light, sling, suppressor, red dot, or what have you) and you have a solid weapon.

 

[TonyAngel]

Well heck, if you already have handgun, a rifle is the next logical step.

Getting into barrels twists is another can of worms. Generally speaking, if all you are going to shoot is 62gr and lighter, then the 1:9 will serve you nicely. If you think you might want to shoot the MK262 or heavy TAP ammo, a 1:7 might serve you better. The 1:7 will shoot the lighter stuff. The caveat is that a 1:7 might exaggerate the inconsistencies in cheap ammo. Theoretically a 1:9 twist might shoot crap M193 ammo better than a 1:7 twist simply because the 1:9 twist spins it slower so it doesn't wobble as much while it's flying. Now, if you feed the 1:7 the good stuff, it will shoot it every bit as well as a 1:9 twist.

Of course, I'm just talking in general terms. You could very well get a 1:7 that shoots the cheap lighter stuff every bit as well as a good barrel with a 1:9 twist. On the other hand, you might get a 1:9 twist that will shoot 77gr projectiles very well. My Rock River (or is it a Bushmaster?) 1:9 barrel shoots 77s just fine.

The point is, don't loose too much sleep over the issue. The only thing is that the arguably better barrels, like those from Bravo Company, Noveske, Spike's, Daniel Defense, etc., come with 1:7 twist. If you like one of their rifles, just buy it and don't worry about it.

Personally, for my goto/play rifle, when I need a barrel I just get a name brand. Like I said, I used either a Rock River or Bushmaster on mine. It runs fine.

 

[Girodin]

My "charlie" has 6K rounds thru her and is as tight and accurate as new.

I'd point out that round count alone is not an indication of durability. There would, for example, be a huge difference between running 6K rounds through a gun straight with out significant pause and shooting 50 slow fire rounds a range session until one reached 6K. Those are more extreme ends of the spectrum but serve to illustrate the point. My personal concerns with the PLR are when a lot of rounds are shot relatively quickly. As I eluded to earlier the regulars on the Kel tec owners group forum freely admit that the gun is not made to and cannot handle a number of rounds fired rapidly. They are pretty hardcore Kel tec cheerleaders over there too and tend to spin things pretty positively for their beloved KTs. The following was posted their by an employee of Kel Tec.

after 100 rounds fired fast, let it cool for 15 to 30 minutes before shooting rapidly again. As long as you let it cool every few magazines, you will be fine.

The forum mod over there (who usually goes into full apologist mode if people posting negative things about a KT) posted the following:

All weapons have their limitations, and sustained rapid fire is one of the PLR's limitations.

Issues seem to be with the barrels. As the above moderator put it though it is a good thing that the hand guard will simply melt because that lets you know the gun is getting too hot.

Again 100 rounds is not going be used for SD but

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Sorry but a riffle for home defense? These are Zombies coming up the lawn right... Just thinking that a 3 yard shot at a BG will probably still go through a wall and one of your kids.

Educate yourself.

 

[TonyAngel]

I have to agree with Girodin on the Keltec. When a manufacturer tells you that it will last 6K round "or more" that does not instill confidence. The "or more" part probably refers to that guy that only puts 50 rounds through it at a time.

For reference, my pliking AR has eaten over 6K rounds in the last few months. I doubt that the Keltec could keep up with that. Besides, where do you get parts for a Keltec when you need them?

 

[Girodin]

When a manufacturer tells you that it will last 6K round "or more" that does not instill confidence.

Many people claim, and it may even be the case, that the proviso is in reference to their little guns like the PF9 and the P3ta. This of course begs the question why they don't simply change the info they are putting out in relation to their other weapons. It doesn't seem like it would be hard.

As to parts KT is rather good about shipping people parts or making repairs. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of people that can testify to that.

 

[TonyAngel]

The shipping parts is what bothers me. AR parts are pretty common. Of course, we're talking about something that would only be important in extreme circumstances.

Personally, I usually have enough parts around to rebuild my rifles a few times over. I know that isn't the norm, but I've accumulated so many parts because they are so available.

 

[Girodin]

I'm more bothered by the manufacture saying not shoot more than a mag or two at a time because it will damage the gun. I imagine one could get whatever spare parts they wanted from KT and have them on hand. I do not know, however, what the cost would be.

 

[Ignition Override]

1) A bright inside light to identify that it is Not a family member or relative returning on a different day or very late at night. Does your new security system go off due to internal faults?

2) To echo Byrons's suggestion, my Mini 14 was built in '90, and although I have four bolt-action rifles built in '43-'48 (Enfields and Yugo Mauser) and an SKS, the Mini 14 (all original) was the most reliable rifle I've had.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2,I'll bet with that brake the Bushmaster really barks as well.tom.

Yes it does. Not as bad as a PLR but still hard on the ears. One day I'll get around to taking off that MB and replacing it with a Phantom.

I'm more bothered by the manufacture saying not shoot more than a mag or two at a time because it will damage the gun. I imagine one could get whatever spare parts they wanted from KT and have them on hand. I do not know, however, what the cost would be.

I have 6 Kel Tecs. One is the CA Rifle and two are PLRs. A few days ago I was shooting a LOT more than one magazine at a time.
In any case I think in a HD situation the possibility of rapidly shooting enough rounds to damage the gun isn't likely.

At present the rifle is doing duty as a car gun, with a Red Dot sight.


I have never paid KT a cent for spare parts, or shipping, that I have requested, although I'm sure if I wanted a stock of spares there would be a charge.

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that a "go to" rifle for home defense would be tested some for reliability of the magazines and for sight-in, and then used relatively little. The idea is not to use it as one's fun-gun for turning money into noise and making holes in paper. "6,000 rounds or more" is irrelevant.

Use = wear. Wear leads to failure, whether it's a gun, a pickup truck or a washing machine. A warranty doesn't help in a fire-fight.