Which .38+P Snubby Carry Load?

[tbeb]

I would say heavier is better.

I use the Federal 158 gr. lead hollowpoint. I may switch to the Speer 135 gr JHP. My wifes likes the Federal (Hi-Shok) 125 gr. JHP, because she can control it better than the 135-158 gr. loads.

 

[StrikeEagle]

I have to say this small-frame revolver stuff has gotten kinda nutty, IMO.

158+P .38 Spl is about my limit in an aluminum frame revolver. Now we have revolvers that are even LIGHTER than that? Chambered for .357??

I'd love to see someone attempt RAPID, ACCURATE fire from one of those.

StikeEagle

 

[Biker]

I have to say this small-frame revolver stuff has gotten kinda nutty, IMO.

158+P .38 Spl is about my limit in an aluminum frame revolver. Now we have revolvers that are even LIGHTER than that? Chambered for .357??

I'd love to see someone attempt RAPID, ACCURATE fire from one of those.

StikeEagle

Think I'll pass on that, StrikeEagle. Shooting 225gr Silvertips in my 17 oz Taurus 450 LC is about all I can deal with fast *and* accurately.
Fed HydoShoks in my lil' ol' Charter Arms aluminum/stainless .38 snubby.
Biker

 

[perpster]

Check out the Speer/CCI Short-Barrel Ammo.

Very interesting and easy read (& compares the round to 9mm +P JHP):

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SpeerTech38_135HP.pdf

"The purpose of this product is to provide ammunition specifically
designed for “Snub Nosed” revolvers carried for Law Enforcement
back-up use. Previous 38 Special ammunition was designed for
four or six inch barreled revolvers that generate higher velocities
corresponding to barrel length. These higher velocities facilitated
easier opening of hollow point bullets. If the same ammunition is
fired in short barreled revolvers typical of those LE Officers carry,
the corresponding lower velocity bullets do not penetrate
windshield glass, plywood, or car door barrier tests. When
penetration occurs in the other tests, non-expansion of the bullets
leads to diminished terminal performance and gross overpenetration
of the target.
This SPEER Gold Dot Hollow Point ammunition was specifically
designed to operate in the most prevalent back-up revolver: The
Smith & Wesson J Frame with 1 7/8” barrel. Ballistic gelatin testing
demonstrates excellent terminal performance when shot through
the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol. Attached results document the
superior performance of this ammunition in this operating platform."

 

[cslinger]

I am certainly no expert but I feel that anything lighter then 125-130 grain is likely not to penetrate far enough. That being said I really am a firm believer in that shot placement is what matters and that if you do you your part, while also seeking cover and retreat you will be fine with any high quality SD ammo.

Sure we could all run into a hopped up super trooper who is likey to keep coming even with several 12 gauge blasts but the reality is the minute you feel the need to start shooting both the shooter and the shootee are going to be running in opposite directions and if somebody is shot they are likely to be taken out of the fight psychologically.

Shoot something that will penetrate to the sensative stuff and learn to shoot for CNS areas. Turn off the electric and they cease to be a threat period, no matter what they are on or how tough they are.

 

[Stainz]

I bought a 2" 10-11 new 9/03 - actually made 1/03, according to S&W. While I 'plink' with my own reloads, as a house gun, it is loaded with the Remington R38S12 158gr LHPSWC +P loads. According to S&W, it is +P rated. It shoots to POA at 12 yd with those loads. With my reloads, I can hit a 12" steel plate at 100-110yd often enough to make me realize that it is more accurate than I am, even with that 2" barrel. With the service wood boot-like stocks from S&W, it is a nice, albeit a bit heavy, CCW.

The FBI didn't leave this purpose-built-for-a-snubby round because it was ineffective, they wanted the capacity of a semi-auto. The new purpose-built 135gr Speer Gold Dots should be are for the AirWeights, 637/642, etc, due to the lessened recoil.

Stainz

 

[Big Gay Al]

Check out the Speer/CCI Short-Barrel Ammo.

Very interesting and easy read (& compares the round to 9mm +P JHP):

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SpeerTech38_135HP.pdf

Please tell me they still make this load.

 

[Jim March]

They sure as hell do .

There's some confusion right now because they've renamed it - added "SB" for "Short Barrel" to the name.

It's like this: the Speer 135gr 38+P was the first Gold Dot tuned for short barrels, 2" in the case of this 38. Worked great. They then came out with other "short barrel special" rounds in other calibers, invented the "SB" brand name for the whole series and renamed the 38+P 135gr "SB" to match the rest for marketing purposes. The 38+P 135gr itself didn't change, only name add-on.

They are VERY popular and damned hard to find retail. One shop told me they can old get three boxes (of 20rd each) a week! The 135gr projectile is also not being offered as a reloading component to either consumers or smaller reloading houses such as Black Hills, Georgia Arms, Buffalo Bore or the like...all 135gr projectiles are being loaded in Speer cases, Speer boxes, at least as of this writing. I've been told by one very small reloading house that Speer wanted to charge him a LOT for just the standard 125/158 projectiles, apparantly to discourage additional reloading houses.

It's possible Speer is diverting assembly lines over to military contract products or are otherwise overstressed on the manufacturing side.

The good news: bigger mail-order houses do have the 135 38+P Speers.

 

[Stainz]

I think the 200gr Gold Dot .44 Special bullet, Speer #4427, was actually available for some time as a 'low speed' bullet. From a 2.5" and 3" barrel, a la a S&W 296 and 696 or Charter Arms Bulldog, I have chrono-ed 805 & 840 fps respectively. Speer states that they were designed to open reliably by 800 fps, and not to be used over 1,000 fps. While the bullet has been available for reloading, it's $17+/100 price vs the $12.86/50 CCI Blazer ('Academy Sports/Outdoors' chain) has kept me from doing so lately. Additionally, the GA Arms G44SC so loaded is $19/50 in new Starline brass. Incidently, that Blazer bullet in the fresh rounds I bought Saturday looks identical to the bullet in the GA Arms as well as those I had loaded several years ago, somewhat setting aside the rumor of a less effective bullet being marketed in the Blazer ammo.

I sure wish they'd market the 135gr GDJHP in Blazer guise...

The Remington R38S12 158gr +P LHPSWC is still my choice.

Stainz

 

[Trumpetman]

Heavy Bullets for the Snub-nosed .38

I hope it's OK to resurrect this thread. I've learned a great deal from a variety of posts. In particular, fastbolt mentioned the heavier snub-nosed revolvers. That's the way I decided to go, making ammunition choices somewhat easier, for me anyway. I'm a big man, so a heavy gun is easy for me to conceal, and heavy bullets don't recoil so heavily in a heavy gun.

I had only $200 to spend on a backup gun, and I didn't know much about revolvers. After looking at numerous new and used guns, I eventually decided on the one that fit my hand the best. It's the Rossi 351. I got it for $209 NIB. It weighs in at 24 ounces. The grip is ugly, but it fits my hand like a glove. The trigger was heavy until I bought a used main spring for $1 off of E-bay and clipped a couple of rounds of coil off of it. I put 300 flawless rounds through it before I started carrying it with the lighter spring, to make sure it would be there for me in a pinch. It performs perfectly.

I carry Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P ammo. My snub is secondary during those jacket/coat months, and these "short barrel" rounds are supposed to expand in bare gel as well as four layers of denim. I carried +P wad-cutters for a while at the beginning of the summer of 2006, but eventually decided to carry the Gold Dots all the time. During the summer months the Rossi becomes my primary carry gun most of the time.

I like to practice with +P wad-cutters and other heavier lead bullets. I load 3.8 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain wad-cutter or 3.6 grains of Bullseye behind a 158 grain lead bullet. Both of these loads seem to create the same amount of felt recoil, resembling the feel of my carry ammo. The Gold Dots shoot to POA even though they are lighter. Other light bullets that I've used to try and simulate the Gold Dot 135's, such as the Hornady 135 grain jacketed soft point "practice bullets," shoot very low. I stopped using those when I ran out of them. I think the heavier bullets are better to practice with.

When I first got this little snub gun I wondered if I would ever master it. I was all over the place. After a thousand rounds or more I feel very confident with it now. I can hit a 2/3 scale bowling pin target most of the time, and fill a blank sheet of paper with holes without fail, most holes ending up around and about the middle of the page. For what it's worth, I can even ring the 50-yard gong consistently.

Thanks, everybody, for the insight into the ammo situation, and for your input on short-barreled guns in general.

 

[Jim March]

Kewl. I think a snubby of at least 19oz is a fine thing. My old Charter Undercover is 17oz and I wish it was a bit heavier, but it's a good gun and heavy enough not to jump crimp on 38+P so it's my baby .

This particular specimen is spectacularly tight and a great shooter. If I didn't have it I'd probably buy an SP101 to fit the same role.